wel_mel_2

How Christains should treat NONE CHRISTIANS?

32 posts in this topic

Bismillah: Assalamo Alikum.

'AlShamms'

You do not understand the God of the Bible.

All Christians without exception, are trying to make us fee that we are dumb and can never understand unless we follow them blindly, so let me tell you something:

how can I understand when the gift of understanding was NOT given to me according to you?

How should I be blamed if it was not given to me?

How can I believe without understanding? But according to you,I will not understand unless I believe? And the circle never ends.

Jehovah does indeed love those who do not deserve it,

Complete your sentence please, UNLESS they repents (so there is no unconditional love as SOME 'i.e. the majority of Christians would say').

that is what Grace is. To answer your question, yes Jehovah would love someone who has raped in the past, if that individual repents from their sin:

I agree and this concept is found in Islam. That's why I said UNLESS he repents. And that is what your Bible confirms as well.:

“The soul that sinneth it shall die, the son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither the father bear the iniquity of the son; the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him. But if the wicked WILL TURN from all his sins that he hath committed and keep my statutes and do that which is lawful and right, HE SHALL SURELY LIVE, HE SHALL NOT DIE. Ezekiel 10:20-21

No one is going to die for your sins, all you need to do is repentance, to keep God's commandments and to do what is lawful and right in order to be saved.

Wael, this will be my last post on this issue as you do not understand the concept of "love your enemy".

Please count with me, I don't understand the God of the Bible, and I don't understand the concept of love your enemy.

I do not have affection for my enemy, but if my enemy has a need at the time I encounter him, I am commanded by my God to meet that need

This is what I exactly I was saying, however I do not call this LOVE, it is no more than following God's commandment, i.e. to be well mannered and to turn evil with that which is good. And this was one of the characteristics of the Prophet Muhammad pbuh, to do good to those who harmed him, not seeking their own pleasure, but God's alone, not because he loves them personally, but he was loving to see them guided.

That's my last comment as well regarding 'loving your enemy'.

Jehovah will have mercy (Grace, unmerited favor) on whom he wills, and it has nothing to do with what we will, or try to do. Meaning we cannot will ourselves to salvation. It is God's choice alone.

Another concept that was confirmed in Islam.

“For His Mercy, He specially chooses whom He pleases; for Allah is the Lord of bounties unbounded. Qur'an 3:74

Salam

Wael.

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Peace....

"All Christians without exception, are trying to make us fee that we are dumb and can never understand unless we follow them blindly"

It's not about you being dumb nor is it about you following any particular person blindly. What it's about is divine revelation:

Matthew 16:15-17

(15) He said to them, But who do you [yourselves] say that I am?

(16) Simon Peter replied, You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.

(17) Then Jesus answered him, Blessed (happy, fortunate, and to be envied) are you, Simon Bar-Jonah. For flesh and blood [men] have not revealed this to you, but My Father Who is in heaven.

This is the only way knowledge of the scriptures come, by divine revelation. There was a man named Nicodemus who came to Jesus in the night to speak with him, during their discourse, Jesus explained about new birth:

John 3:1-4

(1) NOW THERE was a certain man among the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a ruler (a leader, an authority) among the Jews,

(2) Who came to Jesus at night and said to Him, Rabbi, we know and are certain that You have come from God [as] a Teacher; for no one can do these signs (these wonderworks, these miracles--and produce the proofs) that You do unless God is with him.

(3) Jesus answered him, I assure you, most solemnly I tell you, that unless a person is born again (anew, from above), he cannot ever see (know, be acquainted with, and experience) the kingdom of God.

(4) Nicodemus said to Him, How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter his mother's womb again and be born?

John 3:10-13

(10) Jesus replied, Are you the teacher of Israel, and yet do not know nor understand these things? [Are they strange to you?]

(11) I assure you, most solemnly I tell you, We speak only of what we know [we know absolutely what we are talking about]; we have actually seen what we are testifying to [we were eyewitnesses of it]. And still you do not receive our testimony [you reject and refuse our evidence--that of Myself and of all those who are born of the Spirit].

(12) If I have told you of things that happen right here on the earth and yet none of you believes Me, how can you believe (trust Me, adhere to Me, rely on Me) if I tell you of heavenly things?

(13) And yet no one has ever gone up to heaven, but there is One Who has come down from heaven--the Son of Man [Himself], Who is (dwells, has His home) in heaven.

As far as repentance and unconditional love are concerned, repentance is only granted from God Himself while love is indeed based on a condition:

2 Timothy 2:24-25

(24) And the servant of the Lord must not be quarrelsome (fighting and contending). Instead, he must be kindly to everyone and mild-tempered [preserving the bond of peace]; he must be a skilled and suitable teacher, patient and forbearing and willing to suffer wrong.

(25) He must correct his opponents with courtesy and gentleness, in the hope that God may grant that they will repent and come to know the Truth [that they will perceive and recognize and become accurately acquainted with and acknowledge it],

"however I do not call this LOVE, it is no more than following God's commandment, i.e. to be well mannered and to turn evil with that which is good."

And in the Bible that is called "loving your enemy"

Matthew 5:44-45

(44) But I tell you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,

the next verse explains why we must do this, it isn't a suggestion, it's a command:

(45) To show that you are the children of your Father Who is in heaven; for He makes His sun rise on the wicked and on the good, and makes the rain fall upon the upright and the wrongdoers [alike].

Shamms

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Bismillah: Assalamo Alikum.

'AlShamms'

It's not about you being dumb nor is it about you following any particular person blindly. What it's about is divine revelation:

According to you, the whole Bible is revealed or inspired by God, and so I am a human being like you who read the same Bible and understand it perfectly, now you are trying to tell me that "no I don't understand it" and this is exactly what is rejected by me, because I can read and understand Shamms, the only problem is that you are trying to make us feel that "we can't understand at all, the gift of understnading was not given to us" and the verses are crystal clear, need not any interpretation, but still we can't understand, this is nonsensical.

You did not comment on my questions about:

How can I understand when the gift of understanding was NOT given to me according to you?

How should I be blamed if it was not given to me?

How can I believe without understanding? But according to you,I will not understand unless I believe?

As far as repentance and unconditional love are concerned, repentance is only granted from God Himself.

So there is no blood sacrifice required for a person to be forgiven by God? All what it takes is a sincere repentance and not necessarly beliving that Jesus died for our sins, am I right?

And in the Bible that is called "loving your enemy"

Matthew 5:44-45

(44) But I tell you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,

We have indeed presented our view points regarding this topic, so let the readers decides for themselves, which presentation is sensible and which one is fairytale.

Salam

Wael.

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Wael,

Shamms: "repentance is only granted from God Himself"

"So there is no blood sacrifice required for a person to be forgiven by God? All what it takes is a sincere repentance and not necessarly beliving that Jesus died for our sins, am I right?"

No, that is incorrect. The law of blood atonement for sins was instituted in the garden and has not changed. Jesus Christ according to scripture, is the believer's atoning sacrifice:

Matthew 26:28

(28) For this is My blood of the new covenant, which [ratifies the agreement and] is being poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.

So, blood is shed, sins are covered, repentance can be granted. In that order. To answer your questions in bold:

You can't.

Because God is sovereign

You can't.

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Bismillah, Assalamo Alikum:

'AlShamms'

No, that is incorrect. The law of blood atonement for sins was instituted in the garden and has not changed. Jesus Christ according to scripture, is the believer's atoning sacrifice:

Matthew 26:28

(28) For this is My blood of the new covenant, which [ratifies the agreement and] is being poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.

So, blood is shed, sins are covered, repentance can be granted. In that order. To answer your questions in bold:

You can't.

Because God is sovereign

You can't.

But what you are saying going against Ezekiel 10:20-21 where forgiveness is granted based on sincere repentance.

“The soul that sinneth it shall die, the son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither the father bear the iniquity of the son; the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him. But if the wicked WILL TURN from all his sins that he hath committed and keep my statutes and do that which is lawful and right, HE SHALL SURELY LIVE, HE SHALL NOT DIE. Ezekiel 10:20-21

Blood is not needed according to the above verse.

Salam

Wael.

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Just read over this, Wael and I have had some good discussions over the years.

Shamms

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Bismillah

True Al Shamms, and sometimes it is really useful to go through old discussion specially when one develops and gains additional insight. You know you are always welcome here :)

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