wel_mel_2

How Christains should treat NONE CHRISTIANS?

34 posts in this topic

Bismillah: Assalamo Alikum...

The Christians normally preach the message of "LOVE" and "KINDNESS" towards others, not only that, but even to love your enemy however, reading what the apostle John taught in his book will show us something different!!!

"Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he has <both</i> </b>the Father and the Son. If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrineRECEIVE HIM NOT INTO YOUR HOUSE, NEITHER BID HIM GOD SPEED: FOR HE THAT BIDDETH HIM GOD SPEED IS PARTAKER OF HIS EVIL DEEDS.

As we can see, according to the Bible (<i>The Christians God's word</i>), It is not allowed for a Christian to welcome Non Christians in their home or to wish them well. and if a Christian wishes well upon the none Christian, then he or she will be sinning. So actually everytime a Christian is greeting you or wishing you well, he or she is sinning according to the Bible.

So shortly,

-Christians cannot welcome none-Christians into their homes

-Christians cannot wish well upon none Christians

-If Christians do wish well upon a none believer they will be sinning

Salam

Wael.

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"During the first two centuries the gospel was taken from place to place by traveling evangelists and teachers. Believers customarily took these missionaries into their homes and gave them provisions for their journey when they left. Since Gnostic teachers also relied on the practice, 2 John was written to urge discernment in supporting traveling teachers. Otherwise, someone might unintentionally contribute to the propagation of heresy rather than truth."

Introduction to the book of 2 John

Concordia Self-study Bible.

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Bismillah: Assalamo Alikum.

"During the first two centuries the gospel was taken from place to place by traveling evangelists and teachers. Believers customarily took these missionaries into their homes and gave them provisions for their journey when they left. Since Gnostic teachers also relied on the practice, 2 John was written to urge discernment in supporting traveling teachers. Otherwise, someone might unintentionally contribute to the propagation of heresy rather than truth."

Introduction to the book of 2 John

Concordia Self-study Bible.

To warn people against false teachers has nothing to do with treating them this way i.e. not to receive them in your homes and not to wish them well. we have got millions of Christian missionaries roaming around the world preaching their faith, and they knock our doors asking if they can enter and 'convey the message of Christ' and although we know very well that they are not preaching the truth, but we welcome them in our homes based on the teaching of hospitality that we've learned from our beloved Prophet Muhammad pbuh.

Salam

Wael.

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Bismillah

as salam alykom

reepi, cant you clearly see how the introduction you argued with is in total contradiction to the biblical text??? how can you resolve both?

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Excellent news, wel_mel_2! I am very pleased to learn that muslims are doing everything they can to assist Christian missionaries in spreading the Christian Gospel Message to the world's muslims. Well done!

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Excellent news, wel_mel_2! I am very pleased to learn that muslims are doing everything they can to assist Christian missionaries in spreading the Christian Gospel Message to the world's muslims. Well done!

HA HA HA ... REEPI, as usual you are avoiding our questions whenever faults are found in your faith, this is the excellent news actually, that you can't provide an answer, therefore you are proving to us again and again that we are on the right track. Alhamdulelah.

Salam

Wael.

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Bismillah

True, reepi, you could do better, I was expecting a clear and direct answer on how to resolve between a biblical clear and direct text and your implied explanation which has no indication to in the original text Wael posted. Pls I m waiting for you to enlighten me and others.

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Wael, in your zeal to attempt to show the christian message of loving your enemy isn't all it's cracked up to be, you over look the first part of the verse for the second:

"If there come any unto you" -- Meaning if any come preaching in the name of Christ

"and bring not this doctrine" -- But do not teach the doctrine of Christ that John taught

"RECEIVE HIM NOT INTO YOUR HOUSE, NEITHER BID HIM GOD SPEED" -- Do not allow this false preacher into your home nor wish him God speed.

It isn't about the non-Christian exactly, it's more focused on the false preacher and instructions on how to handle him.

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Bismillah: Assalamo ALikum AlShamms, glad to see you here again.

Thanks for your reply, let me please ask further questions for better understanding.

"If there come any unto you" -- Meaning if any come preaching in the name of Christ

So if I come to you as a Muslim preaching in the Name of Allah will you as a Christian treat me better than those "false Christians" who come to you preaching in the name of Christ???

"and bring not this doctrine" -- But do not teach the doctrine of Christ that John taught

Please note, if I come to you preaching, I would not teach the doctrine of Christ as found in the Bible, so how will you treat me in this case and according to the Bible?

"RECEIVE HIM NOT INTO YOUR HOUSE, NEITHER BID HIM GOD SPEED" -- Do not allow this false preacher into your home nor wish him God speed.

Do you consider me as a false or a true preacher? Will you kick me out of your home if I am false one?

It isn't about the non-Christian exactly, it's more focused on the false preacher and instructions on how to handle him.

Ok, if you classify us (Muslims), will we be among false or true preachers? And in both cases are you going to receive us in your home? Will you wish us good speed or you will follow the Biblical command as found in the IIJohn?

Thanks.

Salam

Wael.

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So if I come to you as a Muslim preaching in the Name of Allah will you as a Christian treat me better than those "false Christians" who come to you preaching in the name of Christ???

The same John gave instructions on how to handle such as you describe:

2 John 1:7

(7) For many imposters (seducers, deceivers, and false leaders) have gone out into the world, men who will not acknowledge (confess, admit) the coming of Jesus Christ (the Messiah) in bodily form. Such a one is the imposter (the seducer, the deceiver, the false leader, the antagonist of Christ) and the antichrist.

Please note, if I come to you preaching, I would not teach the doctrine of Christ as found in the Bible, so how will you treat me in this case and according to the Bible?

I would do exactly what my Bible instructs me to do, which is not allow you into my home to teach your false doctrine.

Do you consider me as a false or a true preacher? Will you kick me out of your home if I am false one?

According to the verse I quoted above, my Bible considers you a false preacher, and no, if I knew that I would not allow you into my home.

Ok, if you classify us (Muslims), will we be among false or true preachers? And in both cases are you going to receive us in your home? Will you wish us good speed or you will follow the Biblical command as found in the IIJohn?

Again, the verse I quoted is very clear and the instructions following are clear as well.

Shamms

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The same John gave instructions on how to handle such as you describe:

2 John 1:7

(7) For many imposters (seducers, deceivers, and false leaders) have gone out into the world, men who will not acknowledge (confess, admit) the coming of Jesus Christ (the Messiah) in bodily form. Such a one is the imposter (the seducer, the deceiver, the false leader, the antagonist of Christ) and the antichrist.

Shamms

Salaams

Hope it is OK, i just saw this and felt like jumping in

I dont see how this verse would apply to Muslims. We believe in the coming of Jesus in bodily form.

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I dont see how this verse would apply to Muslims. We believe in the coming of Jesus in bodily form.

Peace SisterJennifer,

Actually you don't. Remember, this is the same John who wrote the Gospel of John and there, he speaks about the divinity of Jesus Christ:

John 1:1-2

(1) IN THE beginning [before all time] was the Word (Christ), and the Word was with God, and the Word was God Himself.

(2) He was present originally with God.

John 1:14

(14) And the Word (Christ) became flesh (human, incarnate) and tabernacled (fixed His tent of flesh, lived awhile) among us; and we [actually] saw His glory (His honor, His majesty), such glory as an only begotten son receives from his father, full of grace (favor, loving-kindness) and truth.

This is not to start a discussion of the Trinity (that's been done elsewhere), this is to show how John recorded the divinity of Christ and instructions regarding those who do not hold the view that John recorded. Muslims believe Jesus to be a prophet just like Moses and Abraham and equal to those prophets of old. They do not view him as the long awaited Messiah.

Shamms

Edited by AlShamms

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They do not view him as the long awaited Messiah.

Hey Shamms,

Im not sure I am understanding how you are pulling all the other criteria into that original verse which just says 'do not acknowledge the coming of Christ in bodily form.'

Yes, I would say that Muslims DO in fact view him as the Messiah that will come at the end of time to defeat the anti Christ. I dont see the where the problem would be. If John wanted to say 'people who dont believe in the trinity' he could have just as easily said that, or anything similar, but he didnt. So is it possible that you are just over complicating something simple? Or am I missing something else?

Thanks

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Bismillah: Assalamo Alikum.

So this is what I meant by my post, that you are not allowed to receive us into your home or even wish us a good speed the moment ANY NON CHRISTIAN OR FALSE CHRISTIAN calls you to any other doctrine except the one your Church belongs to (and bear in mind how many churches out there), but I wonder, if you are not allowed to receive us in your homes, then why do you visit our home? (i.e. this board) since you are 100% sure that we are preaching here Islam which is in conflict with your doctrine!!!!! is itt allowed for you to kick us out of your home but at the same time you may come and knock our doors? Please clarify...

'AlShamms'

The same John gave instructions on how to handle such as you describe:

2 John 1:7

(7) For many imposters (seducers, deceivers, and false leaders) have gone out into the world, men who will not acknowledge (confess, admit) the coming of Jesus Christ (the Messiah) in bodily form. Such a one is the imposter (the seducer, the deceiver, the false leader, the antagonist of Christ) and the antichrist.

In my NWT (New world Translation) of the Christian Greek Scriptures, and in that same verse that you have quoted, they direct the reader to I John 2:22 where we read: "Who is the liar? If it is not the one that denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the Anti Christ." So there is nothing here about his divinity!!! And as you may know, that in our book of authority, the Qur’an Allah tells us: "Behold!' the angels said: 'O Mary! Allah giveth thee glad tidings of a word from him: his name will THE MESSIAH Jesus the son of Mary; held in honor in this world and the hereafter; and (of the company of) those nearest to Allah." ( Qur’an 3:45)

I would do exactly what my Bible instructs me to do, which is not allow you into my home to teach your false doctrine.

According to the verse I quoted above, my Bible considers you a false preacher, and no, if I knew that I would not allow you into my home.

This is what we said in the original post where we exposed how Christians should treat Non Christians who believe that their faith is the truth, in other words you cannot tolerate me and my faith, you have no tolerance for other faiths according to your Bible, so no argument about the original post then.

Salam

Wael.

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Peace Wael,

I often wonder why you choose the particular words you use. For instance, how can you "expose" something that's available for all to read? You can only expose something that's hidden.

A message board is not a home, so it's alright for me to come here. And again, I only comment on post concerning either the Bible or the Christian religion. (personal choice)

No I had no problem with the post that started this thread, only wanted to add some clarification for the readers. As to your last question, yes, it is allowed for us to not let you into our homes and yet, preach the gospel of Jesus Christ to you.

Shamms

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Peace SisterJennifer,

To understand how I am pulling the other criteria into the verse, you have to understand all of what John wrote concerning Jesus Christ. For instance, In John's first letter he writes:

1 John 1:1-2

(1) [WE ARE writing] about the Word of Life [in] Him Who existed from the beginning, Whom we have heard, Whom we have seen with our [own] eyes, Whom we have gazed upon [for ourselves] and have touched with our [own] hands.

(2) And the Life [an aspect of His being] was revealed (made manifest, demonstrated), and we saw [as eyewitnesses] and are testifying to and declare to you the Life, the eternal Life [in Him] Who already existed with the Father and Who [actually] was made visible (was revealed) to us [His followers].

Which is actually a repeat of what he wrote in what is called the Gospel of John in the first chapter. The divinity of Jesus Christ is the central theme of that Gospel and is a theme that is carried throughout all of John's letters.

Again, we aren't speaking about "trinity", only the divinity of Jesus Christ.

While muslims believe "messiah" will come at the end of the world, the Bible teaches something different:

John 4:25-26

(25) The woman said to Him, I know that Messiah is coming, He Who is called the Christ (the Anointed One); and when He arrives, He will tell us everything we need to know and make it clear to us.

(26) Jesus said to her, I Who now speak with you am He.

Christians know and understand that Jesus Christ the Messiah has indeed come...as Jesus himself admitted that he was the Messiah

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Bismillah: Assalamo ALikum.

'AlShamms'

I often wonder why you choose the particular words you use. For instance, how can you "expose" something that's available for all to read? You can only expose something that's hidden.

I am trying to expose that which is not common to most of us (i.e. Muslims and Christians), for example, I don't think that a Christian preacher will ever touch on these verses when addressing his audience, but rather he will speak about 'loving our enemies' which is to me a big joke when you don't receive us in your home or even to wish us a good speed... that's why i was always say that loving your enemy thing is something is impossible to practice.

A message board is not a home, so it's alright for me to come here. And again, I only comment on post concerning either the Bible or the Christian religion. (personal choice)

Well, we consider this board to be home and the Muslims memebers are one family, and that's why i am not sure why should you visit "imposters" place???

Salam

Wael.

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Christians know and understand that Jesus Christ the Messiah has indeed come...as Jesus himself admitted that he was the Messiah

Muslims too believe that the Messiah has already come and was raised to Allah and shall come again (his second coming).

Salam

Wael.

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Peace Wael,

When a Christian "loves their enemy", it has nothing to do with allowing that individual into their home or wishing them God speed. It has everything to do with meeting their need at the appropriate time. Take for example the story in the Bible of the good Samaritan. He "loved his enemy" by attending to the man's wounds and taking him to the inn so the man may rest and regain his strength. That is what the Christian is supposed to do...meed the needs of those he/she encounters. If you have food, drink, clothing and shelter, the only thing you're lacking is the Truth of the gospel of Jesus Christ. Therefore, I love you when I tell you the truth that is Jesus the Christ.

As far as the message board is concerned, your perception doesn't matter...the reality is, it isn't a home.

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Bismillah: Assalamo ALikum.

'AlShamms'

When a Christian "loves their enemy", it has nothing to do with allowing that individual into their home or wishing them God speed. It has everything to do with meeting their need at the appropriate time. Take for example the story in the Bible of the good Samaritan. He "loved his enemy" by attending to the man's wounds and taking him to the inn so the man may rest and regain his strength. That is what the Christian is supposed to do...meed the needs of those he/she encounters. If you have food, drink, clothing and shelter, the only thing you're lacking is the Truth of the gospel of Jesus Christ. Therefore, I love you when I tell you the truth that is Jesus the Christ.

meeting people's need has nothing to do with loving them... so its not necessary that you love your enemy to offer all kind of charitable and voluntarily work, you may do all these things seeking God's pleasure and nothing else... I still insist that NO ONE can LOVE really his enemy unless you guys don't know the meaning of LOVE.

Micheal H Hart said in his book (The 100, a ranking of the most influential persons in history) about the idea of loving one's enemy the followings:

Now, these ideas—which were not a part of the Judaism of Jesus' day, nor of most other religions—are surely among the most remarkable and original ethical ideas ever presented. If they were widely followed, I would have had no hesitation in placing Jesus first in this book.

But the truth is that they are not widely followed. In fact, they are not even generally accepted. Most Christians consider the injunction to "Love your enemy" as—at most—an ideal which might be realized in some perfect world, but one which is not a reasonable guide to conduct in the actual world we live in. We do not normally practice it, do not expect others to practice it, and do not teach our children to practice it. Jesus' most distinctive teaching, therefore, remains an intriguing but basically untried suggestion.

'AlShamms'

As far as the message board is concerned, your perception doesn't matter...the reality is, it isn't a home.

Don't bother, the board is not a home, but you've already declared with the help of your Bible that we are 'imposters' because we are preaching other than your doctrine...so my question remain unanswered, why do you come to this place? (i.e. imposters' place)??? I would love to know your intention.

Please note, I am not suggesting that you should leave here, and I will never kick you of this board, and I will not hesitate to wish you well and pray for you even if you are preaching Christianity, you are our guest, and the Prophet Muhammad pbuh told us to be kind and generous to our guest if we are truly believers in Allah and the last Day... however, I just wanted to understand WHY should you come here knowing very well that we preaching other than your doctrine and at the same time we are not allowed in your home for the SAME REASON????????????

Salam

Wael.

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Peace Wael,

Loving God and your neighbor are the two central themes woven throughout the old and new testaments. Love your enemy is a command given by Jesus Christ to his disciples:

Matthew 5:43-48

(43) You have heard that it was said, You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy;

(44) But I tell you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,

(45) To show that you are the children of your Father Who is in heaven; for He makes His sun rise on the wicked and on the good, and makes the rain fall upon the upright and the wrongdoers [alike].

(46) For if you love those who love you, what reward can you have? Do not even the tax collectors do that?

(47) And if you greet only your brethren, what more than others are you doing? Do not even the Gentiles (the heathen) do that?

(48) You, therefore, must be perfect [growing into complete maturity of godliness in mind and character, having reached the proper height of virtue and integrity], as your heavenly Father is perfect.

Jesus then told his disciples if they were to follow him, to keep his commandments. God commanded the Christian to love his enemy, He did not command his enemy to love the Christian.

John 15:10

(10) If you keep My commandments [if you continue to obey My instructions], you will abide in My love and live on in it, just as I have obeyed My Father's commandments and live on in His love.

Now Wael, you said:

"meeting people's need has nothing to do with loving them." Actually, it has everything to do with it as that is exactly what love is according to the Scriptures.

As far as why I come here it's simple, to present an accurate view of the Bible and the teachings contained in it.

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Bismillah: Assalamo Alikum.

'AlShamms'

Loving God and your neighbor are the two central themes woven throughout the old and new testaments. Love your enemy is a command given by Jesus Christ to his disciples:

Jesus then told his disciples if they were to follow him, to keep his commandments. God commanded the Christian to love his enemy, He did not command his enemy to love the Christian.

I do not argue whether Jesus commanded you to "love your enemy" or not, I only don't see it a practical teaching, I myself refuse to "love" my enemy because among the definitions given by Oxford dictionary for love is "Deep affection or fondness for person or thing" so who on earth will ever love his enemy and have deep affection towards him? , this is only a slogan attributed to Jesus chanted in Churches and on TV to win converts, however it is not followed AT ALL.

"meeting people's need has nothing to do with loving them." Actually, it has everything to do with it as that is exactly what love is according to the Scriptures.

I said it is not necessary that you love someone in order to be good to him, for example in Islam we are told that if a person does not love his wife anymore, he should not treat her bad, he should not have love affair with someone else, and he should not even divorce her, it was narrated once that the son of Umma Ibn Al Khattab told his father "I wanted to divorce my wife" Umar told him "Why O my son?" he said: "I don't love her" so thereupon Umar replied "Subhan Allah (Glory be to Allah) O my son, were all homes established upon love? So where is the protection (i.e. security) and where is the covenant?"

The prophet Muhammad also taught us when someone asked him "To whom shall I give my daughter in marriage?" so he PBUH replied: "to a religious man, because if he loves her he would treat her with all kindness, and if he hated her he would never oppress her"

So love has nothing to do with treating people kindly as you can see, maybe you are loving the charitable deed itself, but not neccessary the person.

As far as why I come here it's simple, to present an accurate view of the Bible and the teachings contained in it.

I like your honesty, so you are a preacher coming to an Islamic board to spread the doctrine of Christ (according to you), taking and advantage of the Muslims' hospitality and generosity and knowing very well that we will not kick you out of here and will never hesitate to wish you a good speed... you are welcome AlShamms.

Enjoy your stay and I wish you all the best insh a Allah.

Salam

Wael.

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Wael,

I can understand your reservation for "loving" one's enemy. According to the world's view of it, loving one's enemy would indeed seem a useless and unusual activity. The purpose of loving one's enemy, is to show that just as Jehovah showed mercy and compassion for us who did not deserve it, so too, should we show mercy and compassion for those of our neighbors who don't deserve it. It's a spiritual way of showing our thanks to our God.

I understand what you mean about not mistreating one's wife. "Love" however is more than merely having affection for someone.

No, I'm not coming to "spread" the Gospel according to the Scriptures...not me. I come so that when topics about the Christian faith come up, those who are muslim can have an accurate account of what the Bible means and what it means to be a follower of The Way.

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Bismillah: Assalamo Alikum.

'AlShamms'

I can understand your reservation for "loving" one's enemy. According to the world's view of it, loving one's enemy would indeed seem a useless and unusual activity. The purpose of loving one's enemy, is to show that just as Jehovah showed mercy and compassion for us who did not deserve it, so too, should we show mercy and compassion for those of our neighbors who don't deserve it. It's a spiritual way of showing our thanks to our God.

Even God/Jehovah does not LOVE those who don't deserve it, does he love a rapist? Or does he love believers equally as he love sinners? Then he is unjust!!! The idea of loving ALL as presented by Christians is yet another myth, sorry to say but listen to your Bible.

1 Give ear to my words, O LORD, consider my meditation.

2 Hearken unto the voice of my cry, my King, and my God: for unto thee will I pray.

3 My voice shalt thou hear in the morning, O LORD; in the morning will I direct my prayer unto thee, and will look up.

4 For thou art not a God that hath pleasure in wickedness: neither shall evil dwell with thee.

5 The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity.

6 Thou shalt destroy them that speak leasing: the LORD will abhor the bloody and deceitful man. (Bible KJV, Psalms 5:1-6)

Please note, the verse plainly says that God HATES the WORKERS OF INIQUITY, it does not say that he hates the SIN or the CRIME, in other words God hates those who sin against him, he hates HIS ENEMIES.

Here is another verse for your reference:

As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. Romans 9:13

Paul here was quoting the OT as he said IT IS WRITTEN that God hated someone… here is the reference from OT…And I hated Esau, and laid his mountains and his heritage waste for the dragons of the wilderness. Malachi 1:3

As I told you, God does not love everybody as the Christians would make us believe, and so human being too can never love their enemies in the manner Jesus described. That's what M.H Hart said in his book, that this teaching can be found in a perfect world and not here on earth.

The God who commanded you not to receive us in your homes does not love us, the God who tells you not to wish us well, does not love us, and you are still trying to convince us that you love your enemy? Please......

Your Bible clearly states that you should never associate yourselves with unbelievers, and of course Muslims are considered by you as infidles, so i really can't understand your position, whether you go against the Bible's teaching or you did not come across these verses before? Read II Cor 6:14-17 for yourself.

No, I'm not coming to "spread" the Gospel according to the Scriptures...not me. I come so that when topics about the Christian faith come up, those who are muslim can have an accurate account of what the Bible means and what it means to be a follower of The Way.

I am sorry, but I get my knowledge of the Bible from people who have spend almost their entire life searching and studying nothing else but the Bible and the history of your scriptures, so what have you got compare to them is very little, and yet you are claiming that whatever they said about the Bible carry no weight and that it is better for us to be educated through you. i am sorry but this makes no sense to me at all.

Salam

Wael.

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Peace....

"Even God/Jehovah does not LOVE those who don't deserve it, does he love a rapist?"

You do not understand the God of the Bible. Jehovah does indeed love those who do not deserve it, that is what Grace is. To answer your question, yes Jehovah would love someone who has raped in the past, if that individual repents from their sin:

1 John 1:6-10

(6) If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:

(7) But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

(8) If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

(9) If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

(10) If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

There is a difference between a repentant and unrepentant sinner.

"The idea of loving ALL as presented by Christians is yet another myth, sorry to say but listen to your Bible."

I agree, that is a myth presented by "SOME" Christians, those of us who know the truth understand that God does not love every individual. He loves those whom he has elected or chosen to Himself.

Wael, this will be my last post on this issue as you do not understand the concept of "love your enemy". I do not have affection for my enemy, but if my enemy has a need at the time I encounter him, I am commanded by my God to meet that need....that's it, that's all. I would like to address something about Jacob and Esau since you brought it up:

Romans 9:10-16

(10) And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;

(11) For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;

(12) It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.

(13) As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

(14) What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.

(15) For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

(16) So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that showeth mercy.

This is what it is all about, Jehovah will have mercy (Grace, unmerited favor) on whom he wills, and it has nothing to do with what we will, or try to do. Meaning we cannot will ourselves to salvation. It is God's choice alone.

Shamms

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