Curious Christian

No Compulsion in Islam?

37 posts in this topic

Some will use the following to present Islam as an open, tolerant religion, apologists typically present the famous "no compulsion" part of the Koran...

2:256: "There is no compulsion in religion. The right direction is henceforth distinct from error. And he who rejecteth false deities and believeth in Allah hath grasped a firm handhold which will never break. Allah is Hearer, Knower

However the verse which follows 2:256 seems to convey a different idea when read together...

2:257: "Allah is the protecting guardian of those who believe. He bringeth them out of darkness into light. As for those who disbelieve, their patrons are false deities. They bring them out of light into darkness. Such are the rightful owners of the Fire [of Hell]. They will abide therein [forever]."

Both verses together certainly convey a different message than the typical apologist snippet from 2:256. The pair of complete verses show the Koran's respective policies for Muslims (believers) and non-Muslims (disbelievers). Believers are warned not to slip into disbelief, and disbelievers are warned to become believers — or else. In other words, according to this passage, there is compulsion in Islam, despite the initial "no compulsion" statement. Verse 18:29, itself, bears some similarities to the 2:256-257 pair:

18:29: "Say: (It is) the truth from the Lord of you (all). Then whosoever will, let him believe, and whosoever will, let him disbelieve. Lo! We have prepared for disbelievers Fire. Its tent encloseth them. If they ask for showers, they will be showered with water like to molten lead which burneth the faces. Calamitous the drink and ill the resting-place!"

The policy in the Koran does not appear to be "Believe it or not," but instead is "Believe it or else!" The damnation of disbelievers in 2:257 and 18:29 is consistent with Allah's policy throughout the Koran. There are over 250 separate damnations of disbelievers in the Koran. True believing Muslims, on the other hand, are promised with the reward of Paradise in the Hereafter.

Many verses in the Koran say that believers should strive against the disbelievers universally (e.g., Muslims should ________ the non-Muslims: fight/oppose/shun/strive against/regard as the enemy/never help/never befriend/sever family ties with/never compromise with/never obey/never forgive/chastise/curse/be ruthless toward/be stern toward/etc. [3:118; 3:28, 3:56; 3:87-88, 4:50, 4:63, 4:101, 4:139-140, 4:144, 5:54, 5:57, 8:65, 9:14, 9:23, 9:73-74, 9:123, 25:52, 28:86, 31:7, 33:48, 45:7-8, 48:28-29, 53:29, 58:5, 58:22, 60:1, 60:4, 60:10, 60:13, 63:6, 66:9, 68:8-9, 76:24, 84:24].

No statements in the Koran contradict this policy toward the disbelievers. That is, there are no verses that say "Be genuine friends with the disbelievers," or "Treat the disbelievers kindly, as good as you would treat Muslims").

The Koran repeatedly identifies the disbelievers as the enemy, evil, wicked, wrong-doers, evil-doers, on the side of Satan and fighting against Allah, etc. (16:27, 2:91, 2:99, 80:42, 9:125, 42:45, 2:254, 5:45, 42:44, 4:76-77, 58:19, 7:27, 7:30, 25:55, 63:4). Christians and Jews are also condemned and insulted many times (2:61, 4:48, 4:50, 4:116, 4:47-52, 4:55, 4:157, 4:160, 5:12-5:13, 5:37, 5:51, 5:53, 5:59-60, 5:72-73, 5:79, 18:52, 33:26, 59:14, 98:1).

Religious freedom requires the ability to freely express criticism of a religion. The Koran forbids this (2:2). As everyone now knows, it is not possible to criticize Islam openly without risking being killed by an Islamist who wishes to obey the Koran and follow Mohammad's example.

For example, those who malign the prophet and Allah will be cursed in this world and in the Hereafter (33:57); those who malign Muslims will be doomed (33:58). Those guilty of either hypocrisy, adultery or lechery, or sedition (alarmism; spreading false news), will be seized wherever they are found and slain with a (fierce) slaughter (33:60-62). For those transgressions, a brutal death seems like quite an excessive penalty by our modern standards. Nevertheless, 33:62 states that this harsh penalty had always been in accordance with Allah's law, and that it would remain so.

Seems that there is cumpulsion in Islam.

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Bismillah: Assalamo Alikum.

Some will use the following to present Islam as an open, tolerant religion, apologists typically present the famous "no compulsion" part of the Koran...

2:256: "There is no compulsion in religion. The right direction is henceforth distinct from error. And he who rejecteth false deities and believeth in Allah hath grasped a firm handhold which will never break. Allah is Hearer, Knower

However the verse which follows 2:256 seems to convey a different idea when read together...

2:257: "Allah is the protecting guardian of those who believe. He bringeth them out of darkness into light. As for those who disbelieve, their patrons are false deities. They bring them out of light into darkness. Such are the rightful owners of the Fire [of Hell]. They will abide therein [forever]."

Both verses together certainly convey a different message than the typical apologist snippet from 2:256. The pair of complete verses show the Koran's respective policies for Muslims (believers) and non-Muslims (disbelievers). Believers are warned not to slip into disbelief, and disbelievers are warned to become believers — or else. In other words, according to this passage, there is compulsion in Islam, despite the initial "no compulsion" statement. Verse 18:29, itself, bears some similarities to the 2:256-257 pair:

Let’s see what the Bible said about compulsion:

God of the Bible Chose the land of Palestine to be the Jews' "Promise Land", and thus, ordered them to go into it and fight the pagans there so they can have possession over it:

Numbers 13:26-28

26 They came back to Moses and Aaron and the whole Israelite community at Kadesh in the Desert of Paran. There they reported to them and to the whole assembly and showed them the fruit of the land.

27 They gave Moses this account: "We went into the land to which you sent us, and it does flow with milk and honey! Here is its fruit.

28 But the people who live there are powerful, and the cities are fortified and very large. We even saw descendants of Anak there.

Now, we may ask, Did the disbelievers in the land of Palestine during the times of Moses start any war with the Hebrews who ORIGINALLY came from Egypt?? Absolutely Not! So it seems that there is compulsion in the Bible.

Later on, the Hebrews or the "Israelites" or the "Jews" ‘call them as you wish’ have committed Pedophilia, Murders and Terrorism against those disbelievers:

"Now kill all the boys [innocent kids]. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man. (Numbers 31:17-18)"

Now what crime did the innocent children and non virgin women commit in order for them to get killed?

It is quite interesting that one of the 10 commandments says “Thou shall not kill/murder” and yet the Bible ordered the killing of innocent children and non virgin girls by the mass.

It seems that there is really no compulsion in the Bible.

And of course there is no need to mention about those innocent 42 kids who were killed by wild bears by Prophet Elisha, Or shall we mention about killing both righteous and wicked (both are equal)? Or we may talk about killing those who invite you to worship other than the God of the Bible even if they were your household? No need to mention because it seems that there is no compulsion in the Bible.

No statements in the Koran contradict this policy toward the disbelievers. That is, there are no verses that say "Be genuine friends with the disbelievers," or "Treat the disbelievers kindly, as good as you would treat Muslims").

Absolute lie, the Qur’an is with us CC, we can very easy recognize the lairs.

Allah does not forbid you to deal justly and kindly with those who fought not against you on account of religion and did not drive you out of your homes. Allah loves those who deal with equity. Al-Mumtahinah. Verse# 8

Prophet Mohammad pbuh has also said: “I shall plead on the day of judgment on behalf of a disbeliever who was harmed or whose due right was diminished or if more than bearable pressure was exerted on him or if something was taken from him without his consent by a believer.”

The Koran repeatedly identifies the disbelievers as the enemy, evil, wicked, wrong-doers, evil-doers, on the side of Satan and fighting against Allah.

And how the Bible identifies the disbelievers? No no how the Bible identify the believers themselves? Don’t you know that Jesus addresses his own people as “an evil and adulteress generations”? Just because they were asking him to prove himself to be the true Christ!

Religious freedom requires the ability to freely express criticism of a religion. The Koran forbids this (2:2). As everyone now knows, it is not possible to criticize Islam openly without risking being killed by an Islamist who wishes to obey the Koran and follow Mohammad's example.

Let the Bible speak:

"And that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams, shall be put to death; because he hath spoken to turn you away from the LORD your God..." (Deuteronomy 13: 5)

"If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers;" (Deuteronomy 13: 6)

"Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him: But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people." (Deuteronomy 13:8-9)

"Thou shalt surely smite the inhabitants of that city with the edge of the sword, destroying it utterly, and all that is therein, and the cattle thereof, with the edge of the sword." (Deuteronomy 13:15)

"But God shall wound the head of his enemies, and the hairy scalp of such a one as goeth on still in his trespasses. The Lord said, I will bring again from Bashan, I will bring my people again from the depths of the sea: That thy foot may be dipped in the blood of thine enemies, and the tongue of thy dogs in the same." (Psalms 68:21-23)

"And he smote the men of Bethshemesh, because they had looked into the ark of the LORD, even he smote of the people fifty thousand and threescore and ten men: and the people lamented, because the LORD had smitten many of the people with a great slaughter." (I Samuel 6:19)

I guess we can clearly see a plenty of no compulsion in the Bible and freedom of religion.

Ready for you anytime CC, insh a Allah. Keep hitting your head :banghead:

Salam

Wael.

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Bismillah

as salam alykom

Wael, I guess we need to explain to CC the quranic texts, other wise, when you introduce bible texts supporting compulsion, you are letting him get the impression that Quran calls for compulsion as well and you are just defending.

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Bismillah: Assalamo Alikum my dear sister.

Bismillah

as salam alykom

Wael, I guess we need to explain to CC the quranic texts, other wise, when you introduce bible texts supporting compulsion, you are letting him get the impression that Quran calls for compulsion as well and you are just defending.

No my sister, CC perfectly know what I was talking about. Sometimes ago, CC posted the same question and I did clarify this misconception Alhamdulelah and he totally admits that this topic was cleared up.

Sadly, this time he was trying to provoke us, he knew for sure that there is no compulsion in Islam as we will all see his own admission in this thread.

Thanks for clearing this up...that is why I asked.

here is the thread.

Does the Qur'an promote violence to spread Islam?

So this time, I thought to share with him what the Bible said about compulsion, so next time insh a Allah, he should think twice before accusing our faith.

Salam

Wael.

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Jazakum Allah khairan Wael for clearing this up, actually I meant to make this comment since I know very well that this is not your approach and by making this comment others can read and realise the manner of non muslims who then complain when we delet/ignore/ban...etc.

What I liked is that u posted the link proving how he repeats himself, how he has nothing to say, how he is acting irrationally.

You know what Wael? I was going to delet the thread because he is repeating himself, but may be leaving it has a better impact, if u know what I mean my dear brother :)

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Bismillah: Assalamo Alikum.

You bring up important points CC that the muslims fail (yet again) to address. Wel continues with his strategy of "LOOK !! Over there, christianity said something similar."

I hope you can focus on the topic instead of your nonsensical comments.

Salam

Wael.

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Bismillah

as salam alykom

Sorry Wael but I take what I said back. I m sorry CC, I made my reply without referring back to the link Wael gave me. But still the reply on that link does not actually address the points CC brought up on this thread. Matter of fact they are totally different.

CC, Insh a Allah slowly I will go thru those points and Ayahs with u.

Astghferullah, may Allah Forgive me for making those comments quickly without checking properly.

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Bismillah

as salam alykom

No CC, there is not compulsion in religion, but what is really apparent is that there is much confusion on your side. More than this, you are mixing up issues. You are mixing up the issue of compulsion with interrelation between Muslims and non Muslims.

Thus, in this post Insh a Allah I will only address the first issue which is the compulsion part based on the Ayahs you quoted.

The two Ayahs you quoted actually stress the no compulsion. How can you interepret it as (Believers are warned not to slip into disbelief, and disbelievers are warned to become believers — or else). What is even more important is that u r cutting and posting the Ayahs in a way that shows how much you are either confused or....Allah u a`lam. You need to post the 3 Ayahs consecutively as follows in order to explain the proper meaning.

How can u interpret the second one saying:

There is no compulsion in religion. Verily, the Right (Path of) Guidance has become distinct from the wrong path. Whoever disbelieves in Taghut and believes in Allah, then he has grasped the most trustworthy handhold that will never break. And Allah is All-Hearer, All-Knower.

257.

Allah is the Protector of those who believe. He brings them out from darkness into light. But as for those who disbelieve, their Auliya (supporters and helpers) are Taghut [false deities and false leaders, etc.], they bring them out from light into darkness. Those are the dwellers of the Fire, and they will abide therein forever.

The first Ayahs initiates with telling everyone that we have the choice to make and religion shall not be imposed on no one. It is our choice, when this become our choice?? after Allah Allowed us means to distinuguish between, actually the word that is translated here as guidance bears a more comprehensive sense than this. In Arabic the word is Rushd opposite to ghay translated here as wrong path. But the former which is rushd would convey the meaning of rational, sensible, wise, sound, and because of all those descriptions, one who sees this path would cerainly realise the Existence of Allah as introduced through the Messenger. Opposite to the other word which is Ghay, ghay is a derivative of temptation, being tempted to the wrong path.

Thus, we can now say that after Allah Made it clear how to proceed and where to head and go, no one will force no one to embrace the religion. Then Allah Continues to Explain that after making both paths clear and with no compulsion, Allah presents the status of the believers who reject, resent, disapprove believing in taghut that are the idols, other gods than Allah, and only believed in Allah, they succeeded in holding tight to the proper handhold. Then Allah Continues to Explain that one who chooses to believe in Allah and reject other false gods would certainly gain the support of Allah more and more to Bring them into light, in other words to illuminate their paths, their insight. So long as one made a choice to believe in Allah, to come closer to Allah automatically Allah Shall grant the person an improved insight, ability to decide, mental capabilities, ....which is expressed here as taking them from darkness to light. In this regard, the person will be able to realise different things in the universe, realise Allah's multiple signs, shall see how Allah is manifest in each and every step this person makes.

Contrary to the one who makes the opposite choice as explained in the previous Ayah, those who disbelieved and chose to take the taghut as supporters, let the taghut bestow benefit. But what kind of benefit? darkness and darkness. Thus if u take an in depth look into the Ayahs, you will be able to understand that because there is not compulsion in religion, each person shall make a decision as to who is the supporter one is seeking Allah or taghut. However, just to further explain, if u look at the Ayahs, it tells you that Allah Shall Support and Help those who believed with light and insight. This in regard to understanding and staying firm on the correct path. But those who disbelieved shall not be denied their right of sustainenance, protection, provision, as Allah Is the Ever Living, the One Who sustains and protects all that exists which is stated in the previous Ayah: 2: 255. See CC, it does not really help to take Ayahs out of context. Because Allah Is the Ever living Who Neither slumber, nor sleep overtake Him, you and other disbelievers sleep soundly and not fear that the sky would slam down on them, does not worry about earth not producing plants, dont worry about sea not producing sea food, and and and. Thus, a non believer does enjoy equal rights as the believer in terms of sustainence, provision, protection....and even those who do good, they receive their reward in this life.

As for the Ayah you quoted 18: 29

Sobhan Allah, the Ayahs is soooo clear and proving more and more that we make a choice, based on this choice you shall be destined to whereeven you worded to earn. Now having this declared clearly in Quran which is a manual, a guide. Thus, we cannt claim that we were surprised, or that no one told us about the law. We know the law, but if u choose to break it, violate it, breach it, why would u complain? This is not compulsion, but rather this is the concept of transparency and sound governance, and accountability that the USA and western community is now calling for, advocating for and diffusing around the globe. Allah, 1427 years ago, established this concept Alhamdulelah.

Alhamdulelah who Guided us for this and if it wasnt for Him we would have never been guided.

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Bismillah

As for the other part of the post dealing with the warning to the believers to take non believers as friends, I m 100% sure this issue was raised at least 1 or 2 times. But why not? let me try and paraphrase it.

No I cannt take non believers as friends, but I have to deal with them justly.

You cannt quote a set of Ayahs each one of them has different contexts and indications, and if u quote all of those ayahs, why didnt u quote:

Allah does not forbid you to deal justly and kindly with those who fought not against you on account of religion and did not drive you out of your homes. Verily, Allah loves those who deal with equity.

Quran 60:8

Why cannt i take a non believer as a friend? u need to understand the issue of friendship in Islam. First the foundation of friendship of Islam must be establishing the relation in the name of Allah, loving one another for the sake of Allah. In other words, treating one another good not because the other party treats you good, but only for the sake of Allah. This foundation and basis can never be established with a non muslim. This is first and it is the foundation. Come let us move forward. Friends usually seek each other's advice and consultancey, how can a muslim consult a non muslim? the standards are different, the basis are different, the rules are different, the motives are different, the understanding of situations are also different. Thus, I can never seek friendship with a non muslims because this will be totally illogical. Just thinking about it. I mean let us reverse the situation, if u, hypothitcally speaking took a muslim as a friend, and went and shared a problem. The person will need to tell u a certain supplication to use, or if it is a test or a serious problem will bring to your attention the reward of those who are tested, or tell you how to handle it Islamicly. How this will help you?? certainly not. Then it is only logical for Allah to Tell us not to take a non Muslim as a friend for all of the previously mentioned and more.

But the basic rule between us and u is that to you is your religion and to me is mine. That is all.

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seems to me everyone here doesnt know what they are talking about...with all due respect to the mods, as well as the thread starter

what is meant by the verse

(2:256) There is no compulsion and coercion in regard to religion. *285 The right thing has been made distinct from the wrong thing: now whoever rejects taghut *286 and believes in Allah has taken a firm support that never gives way.

*285. Din here signifies the belief about God embodied in the above 'Verse of the Throne' and the entire system of life which rests upon it. The verse means that the system of Islam, embracing belief, morals and practical conduct cannot be imposed by compulsion. These are not things to which people can be yoked forcibly.

*286. Literally taghut means anvone who exceeds his legitimate limits. In the Qur'anic terminology, however, it refers to the creature who exceeds the limits of his creatureliness and arrogates to himself godhead and lordship. There are three stages of man's transgression and rebellion against God. The first stage is that one acknowledges in principle that obedience to God is right, but disregards it in practice. This is fisq (transgression). The second stage is that one not only disobeys but also rejects obedience in principle, and thus either refuses to become the subject of anyone at all or adopts someone other than God as the object of service and devotion. This is kufr (infidelity). The third stage is that one not only rebels against one's Lord but also imposes one's own will (in disregard of the Will of God - Ed.) on God's world and God's creatures. Anyone who reaches such a point is termed taghut and no one can be a true believer in God unless the authority of such a taghut (evil one) is rejected.

as for the next verse

(2:257) And Allah (Whose support he takes) hears everything and knows everything. Allah is the Helper and Protector of those who believe in Him: He brings them out of the depths of darkness *287 into the light. As for the disbelievers, they have taghut *288 as their patron, who drives them out of light into the depths of darkness. These are the people who are doomed to the Fire, wherein they shall live for ever.

*287. The 'darkness' mentioned here means the darkness of Ignorance, which throws man off the path of salvation and well-being and directs his energies and efforts to wrong directions in defiance of reality. 'Light' here means the knowledge of Truth with the help of which man comes to know his own realitv and that of the universe; this knowledge also shows him the purpose of his life, and thus leads him consciously, to adopt the Right Way.

*288. Here taghut (see n. 286 above) has a plural connotation. It implies that by turning away from God a man is subjected not to the tyranny of one, but to the tyranny of many tawaghit (evil one). One of these is Satan, who throws up new temptations and allurements. Another potential taghut (transgressor) is man's own animal self, which seeks to subjugate him to his appetites and desires. There are many more taghut in the world outside oneself ; one's wife and children, one's relatives, one's family and one's community, one's friends and acquaintances, one's social environment and one's people, one's leaders and guides, one's government and rulers are all potential taghut, each one of whom seeks to have his purposes served. Man remains subjected to these innumerable masters throughout his life, not knowing precisely whom he should please and whose displeasure he should avoid.

i hope this clarifies things for everyone

Salam

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Bismillah: Assalamo Alikum.

Bismillah

as salam alykom

Sorry Wael but I take what I said back. I m sorry CC, I made my reply without referring back to the link Wael gave me. But still the reply on that link does not actually address the points CC brought up on this thread. Matter of fact they are totally different.

Sister, CC did not make any point in the above post; It was only copy and paste from some anti Islamic websites to provoke us. If he was really looking for an answer, then he should’ve asked his question in a direct manner.

Anyway, Jazkai Allahu khiran and brother Al-fateh for your further clarification, hopefully this would help him and John to understand.

Salam

Wael.

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the term compulsion here is being misunderstood....

it is very obvious

due to the way the post was presented, and due to explanations that was given in referal to other biblical commandments.

compulsion in referal to the religion and what is right and wrong can be seen in this verse as well

English Yusuf Ali: [2:119]Verily We have sent thee in truth as a bearer of glad tidings and a warner: But of thee no question shall be asked of the Companions of the Blazing Fire.

truth has been presented, a warning has been given, the consequences in on those who reject it... its simple

moreover

English Yusuf Ali: [3:3]It is He Who sent down to thee (step by step), in truth, the Book, confirming what went before it; and He sent down the Law (of Moses) and the Gospel (of Jesus) before this, as a guide to mankind, and He sent down the criterion (of judgment between right and wrong).

and to seal it

English Yusuf Ali: [3:60]The Truth (comes) from Allah alone; so be not of those who doubt.

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Bismillah

as salam alykom

Jazakum Allah khairan fateh, for your clarification and complimenting my post. Actually, when I read your post, Alhamdulelah it was sort of paraphrasing to what I put with further clarification of how Quran is comprehensive in its approach.

Wael, even if he posted it to provoke us, this is part of Quran, we should just explain it the way it is either for him or others who come and visit. In all cases, why would i be provoked for reading Quran???? I enjoy it Alhamdulelah.

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All for the greater glory of God.

Peace be with you!

Wael, please feel free to stick with your current standpoint on compulsion in the Bible. I'm reluctant to interpret these verses, but then again, there's nothing I love more than to study Scripture :)

Numbers 13:26-28

26 They came back to Moses and Aaron and the whole Israelite community at Kadesh in the Desert of Paran. There they reported to them and to the whole assembly and showed them the fruit of the land.

27 They gave Moses this account: "We went into the land to which you sent us, and it does flow with milk and honey! Here is its fruit.

28 But the people who live there are powerful, and the cities are fortified and very large. We even saw descendants of Anak there.

Wael, have you actually read this text? The spies return from Canaan (the Promised Land - Lebanon :wub: ) with a report of the inhabitants & a handful of grapes.

"Now kill all the boys [innocent kids]. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man. (Numbers 31:17-18)"

Please click on one of the following links for an interpretation...

Post #35 http://islamww.com/bb/index.php?showtopic=4165&st=20

Post #13 http://islamww.com/bb/index.php?showt...7&hl=Midianites

Post #79 http://islamww.com/bb/index.php?showtopic=4042&st=60

"And that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams, shall be put to death; because he hath spoken to turn you away from the LORD your God..." (Deuteronomy 13: 5)

"If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers;" (Deuteronomy 13: 6)

"Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him: But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people." (Deuteronomy 13:8-9)

"Thou shalt surely smite the inhabitants of that city with the edge of the sword, destroying it utterly, and all that is therein, and the cattle thereof, with the edge of the sword." (Deuteronomy 13:15)

Moses (who received the commandment, 'Thall shalt not kill') is not attacking anybody. This passage is about idolaters who wish to promote idolatry & break the covenant between YHWH & the Israelites. The measures taken to prevent & punish idolatry were purely defensive at that time & no longer apply. In Galatians, St Paul states that similar people who exist today shall be accursed not killed because the Mosaic Law is not withstanding anymore. The Israelites had to protect the Messianic Line which Christ descends from. Anything that separated them from YHWH was to be avoided. When you really study the underlying meaning of this passage you'll realize that the harshness & exemplary nature of the penalties helps to make it clear that faithfulness to the Lord is more important than anything/anyone else for obvious reasons. Because we've all become one in Christ, nations are no longer against nations. Idolatry will now be dealt with by God not Moses.

"But God shall wound the head of his enemies, and the hairy scalp of such a one as goeth on still in his trespasses. The Lord said, I will bring again from Bashan, I will bring my people again from the depths of the sea: That thy foot may be dipped in the blood of thine enemies, and the tongue of thy dogs in the same." (Psalms 68:21-23)

This is poetry. Not to be taken literally.

"And he smote the men of Bethshemesh, because they had looked into the ark of the LORD, even he smote of the people fifty thousand and threescore and ten men: and the people lamented, because the LORD had smitten many of the people with a great slaughter." (I Samuel 6:19)

Wael, if only you knew the profound meaning of this text. Very symbolic! The Ark of the Lord is the Blessed Virgin Mary who literally carries God's presence within her. In the O/T, the Ark wasn't allowed to be touched by anyone but the Levite Priests. This is to signify Our Lady's purity & virginity. When the Philistines in this passage stole the ark they were warned to send it back to the Israelites in order to save themselves. But instead, they did the unthinkable - they looked inside the ark. Big mistake! Let this be a message to all who profane & desecrate the Holy Tabernacles throughout the world. By doing so, you're asking for trouble.

I guess we can clearly see a plenty of no compulsion in the Bible and freedom of religion.

That's right! But if you use physical force in an attempt to make me a Muslim, I have a right to defend myself. Christianity is just, not passive.

Ready for you anytime CC, insh a Allah. Keep hitting your head :banghead:

Why bother? It's just not worth it!

when you introduce bible texts supporting compulsion

Just so you know, there's no such thing :)

In regards to "No Compulsion in Islam", when I read this I automatically assume that it implies we all have the freedom to practice & preach the religion of our choice. But that's not the case. No compulsion in Islam has conditions attached. Either you submit out of your own free-will or heavy restrictions apply to your life-style. In places like Saudi Arabia, infidels/dhimmies are forced to look like Muslims, talk like Muslims, act like Muslims & live like Muslims. You can't even become a citizen unless you're a Muslim. There might be a lack of compulsion in Islam, but I'm afraid there's also a lack of "freedom". I guess we'll just take what we can get for the time being.

Is it a sin for Muslims to befriend non-Muslims? Is this a command or a recommendation in Islam?

Thanks a lot & God bless.

Faith Hope Charity Openness Tolerance Equality

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Bismillah: Assalamo Alikum:

That's right! But if you use physical force in an attempt to make me a Muslim, I have a right to defend myself. Christianity is just, not passive.

The same thing I am trying to say long time ago, FHC, if anyone use physical force to destroy our faith, we have full right to defend it.

In regards to "No Compulsion in Islam", when I read this I automatically assume that it implies we all have the freedom to practice & preach the religion of our choice. But that's not the case. No compulsion in Islam has conditions attached. Either you submit out of your own free-will or heavy restrictions apply to your life-style. In places like Saudi Arabia, infidels/dhimmies are forced to look like Muslims, talk like Muslims, act like Muslims & live like Muslims. You can't even become a citizen unless you're a Muslim. There might be a lack of compulsion in Islam, but I'm afraid there's also a lack of "freedom". I guess we'll just take what we can get for the time being.

You have no idea about the absolute freedom of religion which was described in Islam:

The Qur’an says:

15:2-3 "Again and again will those who disbelieve, wish that they had bowed (to God's will) in Islam. Leave them alone, to enjoy (the good things of this life) and to please themselves: let (false) hope amuse them: soon will knowledge (undeceive them)."

10:99-100 "If it had been thy Lord's will, they would all have believed, all who are on earth! wilt thou then compel mankind, against their will, to believe! No soul can believe, except by the will of God, and He will place doubt (or obscurity) on those who will not understand."

18:29 "Say, 'The truth is from your Lord': Let him who will believe, and let him who will, reject (it): for the wrong doers We have prepared a Fire whose (smoke and flames), like the walls and roof of a tent, will hem them in: if they implore relief they will be granted water like melted brass, that will scald their faces, how dreadful the drink! How uncomfortable a couch to recline on!"

27:92 "And to rehearse the Qur'an: and if any accept guidance, they do it for the good of their own souls, and if any stray, say: 'I am only a Warner.'"

10:99 "If it had been thy Lord's will, they would all have believed,- all who are on earth! wilt thou then compel mankind, against their will, to believe!"

God Almighty Himself doesn't like us to compel people into belief.

"Say: 'Behold all that is in the heavens and on earth'; but neither Signs nor Warners profit those who believe not. Do they then expect (any thing) but (what happened in) the days of the men who passed away before them? Say: 'Wait ye then: for I, too, will wait with you.' Quran, 10:101-102"

Please note how Allah Almighty orders us to say "Wait" to those who reject Islam. This clearly says that we can't force anyone into Islam, or punish anyone for leaving Islam.

10:108 "Say: 'O ye men! Now Truth hath reached you from your Lord! those who receive guidance, do so for the good of their own souls; those who stray, do so to their own loss: and I am not (set) over you to arrange your affairs.'"

Whoever believes benefits his soul and whoever doesn't, harms it, and Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him is not in charge of people to arrange their affairs. Only Allah Almighty is.

"Say: 'Obey Allah, and obey the Messenger: but if ye turn away, he is only responsible for the duty placed on him and ye for that placed on you. If ye obey him, ye shall be on right guidance. The Messenger's duty is only to preach the clear (Message). Quran, 24:54"

Prophet Muhammad's duty was only to preach.

"Those who pervert the Truth in Our Signs are not hidden from Us. Which is better? he that is cast into the Fire, or he that comes safe through, on the Day of Judgement? Do what ye will: Verily He seeth (clearly) all that ye do. (The Noble Quran, 41:40)"

Here we clearly see Allah Almighty giving a freedom of choice for people to choose or refuse Islam.

Compulsion is incompatible with religion because religion depends upon faith and will, and these would be meaningless by force.

The Quran tells the Muslims to listen to every thing and follow only the best of what is said. it does not tell them to kill people if they say something that is not according to the cultural norm or your beliefs.

Alhamdulelah, The Quran is very clear about providing freedom of religion and choice to all people, Muslims and non-Muslims.

Is it a sin for Muslims to befriend non-Muslims? Is this a command or a recommendation in Islam?

The Qur’an says that we cannot take CERTAIN disbelievers as friends but not ALL.

Chapter 4:144, the word AWLIYAA which was translated as “FRIENDS” does not really mean ‘friends’, but it means "supporter" or "patron", so basically the Qur’anic verse is saying that the Muslims should not patronize the disbelievers instead of the Muslims.

And this is a prohibition of God on the believers that they should not be like the hypocrites and take the disbelievers as allies besides the believers. So they will become like them (the hypocrites) if they do what God forbid them, which is allying themselves with the disbelievers. (Tafsir of Tabari, Commentary on Surah 4:144)

So God is not warning the believers to act like the hypocrites because the hypocrites would secretly aid the disbelievers against the Muslims. It is clear in the context of the passage that it is referring to the hypocrites when you read the next verse...

4:145 The Hypocrites will be in the lowest depths of the Fire: no helper wilt thou find for them;

So the verse really means that we cannot aid the disbelievers against the Muslims.

In another commentery of Tafsir Tabari he says regarding Qur’an 3:28

this means that we should not going supporting the disbelievers in their religion and that we should support ours.

In another verse the Qur’an says:

5:57 O ye who believe! take not for patrons those who take your religion for a jest or a sport, from amongst those who have been given the Book before and the misbelievers; but fear God if ye be believers.

So we are not supposed to take CERTAIN people from the People of the Book (Jews and Christians) as friends and not ALL of them.

We are also not suppose to take those who are fighting against Islam as supporters.

So when the Quran says that we cannot be awliyaa of the disbelievers it just simply means that we cannot ally our selves and support them against the Muslims. We cannot be friends or supporters of those that mock our religion. There is absolutely nothing wrong with showing kindness to those who do not fight us and respect us.

for more information about this please visit this link: IslamOnline.Net

Salam

Wael.

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Bismillah:

Protection of Non-Muslims' Places of Worship

SOURCE

Name of Questioner: Milad

Title: Protection of Non-Muslims' Places of Worship

Question: Could you please furnish us with a detailed fatwa about Islam's stance on protecting non-Muslims' places of worship such as Churches and Synagogues?

Date: 26/Nov/2006

Name of Mufti: Yusuf Al-Qaradawi

Topic: Da`wah to Non- & New Muslims

Answer

In the Name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.

All praise and thanks are due to Allah, and peace and blessings be upon His Messenger.

Dear questioner, we commend your keenness on drawing people’s attention to the noble teachings of Islam. This reflects your true spirit and religious zeal. May Allah help you preserve your faith, amen!

First of all, we would like to make it clear that Islam’s teachings as regard non-Muslims and its keenness on granting them full protection is not confined to the sphere of worship. Rather, Islam’s mercy and great concern for non-Muslims cover all aspects of life. But here we will tackle only the point referred to in your question, revealing the shinning history of Islam with non-Muslims, and how their places of worship are given full protection.

In this regard, we would like to cite for you the following fatwa issued by the well-known erudite scholar Sheikh Yusuf Al-Qaradawi in which he states the following:

Islam establishes a relationship with the people of different faiths on the basis of tolerance, justice, benevolence, and mercy. The basis of this relationship is Allah’s saying in the Qur’an: [Allah forbids you not, with regard to those who fight you not for (your) Faith nor drive you out of your homes, from dealing kindly and justly with them: for Allah loveth those who are just. Allah only forbids you, with regard to those who fight you for (your) Faith, and drive you out of your homes, and support (others) in driving you out, from turning to them (for friendship and protection). It is such as turn to them (in these circumstances), that do wrong.] (Al-Mumtahinah 60: 8- 9)

According to the Qur’an, Muslims are required to deal with all people kindly and justly as long as they do not oppose or oppress Muslims or place obstacles in the way of spreading Islam.

Of non-Muslims, Islam gives special consideration for the People of the Book, that is, Jews and Christians, whether they reside in a Muslim society or not.

Being a divine religion revealed to guide all mankind, Islam tackles all aspects of man's life, regardless of whether he believes in it or not. That is why we see it granting many rights and privileges to non-Muslim citizens of the Islamic state. Muslims are ordered to show full consideration to this injunction and give due respect to non-Muslims' places of worship, which are part and parcel of their property enjoying full protection in Islam.

Protection of property:

The Islamic government is bound to protect the properties of non-Muslims. In his book Al-Kharaj, Abu Yusuf sheds light on the Prophet’s contract with the people of Najran: “Najran and its neighboring area are in the security of Allah, the Almighty, and His Messenger. The property, religions and churches of the inhabitants, as well as properties, whether much or little, are under the protection of the Prophet.”

`Umar ibn Al-Khattab, in his letter to Abu `Ubaydah ibn Al-Jarrah (may Allah be pleased with them both) wrote: “Prevent Muslims from wronging or causing harm to them (non-Muslims) or taking their property illegally.”

Freedom of worship:

This means the freedom to practice any religion or ideology and not to be forced to adopt a certain faith or compelled to convert to Islam. This is based on the verse:

[Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error: whoever rejects evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things.] (Al-Baqarah 2: 256)

Commenting on the verse, the famous exegete Ibn Katheer states: “Don’t force anyone to embrace Islam as it is clear and self-evident in its proofs and realities and does not need to exert force to be accepted.”

Islam protects the places of worship of non-Muslims, and allows them to observe their religious ceremonies. Allah says:

[To those against whom war is made, permission is given (to fight), because they are wronged;- and verily, Allah is most powerful for their aid;- (They are) those who have been expelled from their homes in defiance of right,- (for no cause) except that they say, "our Lord is Allah". Did not Allah check one set of people by means of another, there would surely have been pulled down monasteries, churches, synagogues, and mosques, in which the name of Allah is commemorated in abundant measure. Allah will certainly aid those who aid his (cause);- for verily Allah is full of Strength, Exalted in Might, (able to enforce His Will).] (Al-Hajj 22: 39-40)

In the reign of `Umar ibn Al-Khattab, the religious freedom of the citizens of Ilya (Jerusalem) and the sanctity of their synagogues and places of worship were confirmed: “This is the protection which the slave-servant of Allah, `Umar, the Commander of the Believers, extends to the people of Ilya: The safeguarding of their lives, properties, churches, crosses, and of their entire community. Their churches cannot be occupied, demolished, or damaged, nor are their crosses or anything belonging to them to be touched. They will never be forced to abandon their religion, nor will they be oppressed. None of the Jews will live with them in Ilya….” (At-Tabari, Tarikh, Vol III, p. 609, ed. Dar Al-Ma`arif, Egypt.)

Khalid Ibn Al-Waleed, in his covenant with the People of `Anat, wrote: “They are allowed to ring the bells at any time of the day or night, except in the time of the Islamic prayer times. They are allowed to bear their crosses in their festivals.” (Abu Yusuf, Al-Kharaj, p. 146)

Muslims not only allowed non-Muslims to enjoy the freedom of their faith, but also let them follow their way even though some of their practices might conflict with the religion of the majority. Actually, this is the highest degree of tolerance. Muslims tolerated the religious practices of their minorities by not prohibiting even those practices which were contrary to the state ideology.

History bears witness to the fact that Muslims accepted and applied the Islamic laws to an extent that has no parallel in the history of mankind. The fair and tolerant approach they show to other faiths are no secret.

Asserting the tolerance of Muslims, Tritton says:

“Muslim rulers frequently went beyond what was required of them in their relations with non-Muslims. The best example of this is the presence of churches and other (non-Muslim) places of worship in purely Arab (Muslim) cities. Government departments always had Christians and Jewish officials who were sometimes given very sensitive and influential posts. Some non-Muslims thus acquired great wealth. In addition, Muslims were accustomed to sharing with Christian their festivals.” (Khartubali, Hasan Ali, Islam and Ahl Adh-Dhimmah, p. 256)

Edited by wel_mel_2

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All for the greater glory of God.

The same thing I am trying to say long time ago, FHC, if anyone use physical force to destroy our faith, we have full right to defend it.

You misunderstood. I have a right to defend myself from harm... not my faith. I can't turn violent whenever someone attempts to destroy Catholicism - half the population would cease to exist :lol: But as human beings, we're all equal in dignity & worth & when an aggressor is attacking an innocent person & threatening their life, the innocent person has a right to protect themselves using legitimate self-defence. This rule doesn't apply to Religions (from my side).

Thanks for posting the info. Very interesting. The answer given by the Mufti was somewhat okay in theory, but truth be told, some of what he said is so contrary to the reality of the practice of Islam in many parts of the world today, although the situation's improving slowly, so there's reason to be optimistic :)

"According to the Qur’an, Muslims are required to deal with all people kindly and justly as long as they do not oppose... Muslims or place obstacles in the way of spreading Islam."

I took out the word "oppress" because that's a whole other story. Anyways, the above statement/Ayah would be fine if the same could be said for other religions but because Islam sets a double standard, I strongly reject this view. You're asking the world to accept Islam as a superior religion & that's definitely not freedom, it's dead-set compulsion.

Sorry! I don't mean to constantly disagree with you guys.

Peace & blessings!

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Bismillah: Assalamo Alikum.

You misunderstood. I have a right to defend myself from harm... not my faith.

Prophet Muhammad pbuh said:

“A believer who would integrate and mingle with others waiting patiently to be harmed by them is better than a believer who would neither mingle with them nor would be harmed by them”.

The Prophet never responds to personal attacks or harm, the most precious thing to the Prophet pbuh was not his life or himself as a person, it was HIS MESSAGE and this is the only thing in which he fight for when he was attacked by the unbelievers. Now I remember how many times you said that you too do not respond to personal attacks, but now you have changed your mind and gave yourself rights to defend yourself and not your faith.

Thanks for posting the info. Very interesting. The answer given by the Mufti was somewhat okay in theory, but truth be told, some of what he said is so contrary to the reality of the practice of Islam in many parts of the world today, although the situation's improving slowly, so there's reason to be optimistic

We are here to present the proper image of Islam using the Qur’an and the Sunnah of Prophet Muhammad pbuh, there is no need to compare Islam by Muslims (how many did we repeat this sentence?) :conf06:

"According to the Qur’an, Muslims are required to deal with all people kindly and justly as long as they do not oppose... Muslims or place obstacles in the way of spreading Islam."

I took out the word "oppress" because that's a whole other story. Anyways, the above statement/Ayah would be fine if the same could be said for other religions but because Islam sets a double standard, I strongly reject this view. You're asking the world to accept Islam as a superior religion & that's definitely not freedom, it's dead-set compulsion.

What double standard are you talking about?

Sorry! I don't mean to constantly disagree with you guys.

Its ok, you may disagree all the way FHC, no harm.

Salam

Wael.

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In the Name of the Father & of the Son & of the Holy Spirit - One God - now & forever. Amen.

May the peace of Christ be with you!

The Prophet never responds to personal attacks or harm, the most precious thing to the Prophet pbuh was not his life or himself as a person, it was HIS MESSAGE and this is the only thing in which he fight for when he was attacked by the unbelievers. Now I remember how many times you said that you too do not respond to personal attacks, but now you have changed your mind and gave yourself rights to defend yourself and not your faith.

Personal attacks on these boards don't harm me. Besides, I was referring to physical force (self-defence) when an unjust aggressor threatens my life.

I'd die for The Faith but I wouldn't kill for it (to do so would be contrary to what it stands for anyways).

We are here to present the proper image of Islam using the Qur’an and the Sunnah of Prophet Muhammad pbuh, there is no need to compare Islam by Muslims (how many did we repeat this sentence?) :conf06:

Wael, you need to realize that people interpret & live out Islam in various ways. It's a reality that you can see for yourself just by looking out the window. The proper image according to one mufti in Australia is completely different to that of a mufti in Canada, or Tunisia, or Malaysia, etc. I'm still trying to figure out which way is the correct way in Islam. Bear with me, please.

What double standard are you talking about?

Islam requires that nobody oppose or place obstacles in the way of Muslims proselytizing, yet that's exactly what Muslims do to non-believers in Islamic countries. Hence, a double standard.

Its ok, you may disagree all the way FHC, no harm.

Cheers mate!

Edited by Faith Hope Charity

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Bismillah: Assalamo Alikum.

Personal attacks on these boards don't harm me. Besides, I was referring to physical force (self-defence) when an unjust aggressor threatens my life.

I'd die for The Faith but I wouldn't kill for it (to do so would be contrary to what it stands for anyways).

Jesus himself said in the Bible 'Honor your father and mother' and 'Anyone who curses his father or mother must be put to death.' So maybe you wouldn’t kill anyone, but Jesus give the order of killing those who mistreat their parents. You always present your personal opinion which is totally respected, but don’t try to associate that with the Bible.

I'm still trying to figure out which way is the correct way in Islam. Bear with me, please.

The best way is the way of Prophet Muhammad pbuh and his companions, just try to stick to their way.

Islam requires that nobody oppose or place obstacles in the way of Muslims proselytizing, yet that's exactly what Muslims do to non-believers in Islamic countries. Hence, a double standard.

That is not true, in Egypt there are so many Christian missionaries preaching their faith freely without any difficulties, and in other Islamic countries as well.

i advise you to read the following article.

Non-Muslims' Right to Protection of Life

By Dr Zakir Naik

Islam condemns the killing of human beings and provides full protection to the non-Muslims under covenant(the Dhimmis).

Islam teaches that Allah (swt) is the sole Creator, Sustainer and Absolute Master of humanity, the Universe and all creation. He has given all humans honour and dignity. He has breathed into humankind of His own spirit. All humans are born equal and form one universal community.

Every person, irrespective of the country of his or her birth, and irrespective of his or her religious beliefs, has some basic human rights simply because he/she is a human being.

Human beings are a special creation of Allah (swt). Human life is given by Allah (swt) alone, and as such, belongs to Him. None has the right to take human life without any just cause. Human blood is sacred and should not be spilt without justification. Violating this rule is equivalent to killing of the entire humanity.

Allah (swt) says in the Glorious Qur’an:

“… Whoever kills a soul unless for a soul or for corruption (done) in the land - it is as if he had slain humankind entirely: and whoever saves one – it is as if he had saved mankind entirely.” 1

None has any right by himself to take human life in retaliation or as revenge or for prevention of corruption – this matter has to be decided only by a competent court of law. Thus, it is incumbent on every human being that under no circumstances should he be guilty of taking a human life. These instructions have been repeated in the Glorious Qur’an in another verse:

“And do not kill the soul which Allah has forbidden (to be killed) except by (legal) right.” 2

In all these verses, the word ‘soul’ (nafs) has been used in general terms, which does not apply to the citizens of any country, or people of a particular race or religion, but it rather applies to all human beings without any distinction.

The Prophet (pbuh) has declared homicide as the greatest sin only next to polytheism. The tradition says: “The greatest sins are to associate something with God and to kill a human being…”3

In an Islamic state, every individual, whether Muslim or Non-Muslim has a right to protection of life and it is the duty of that state to provide security to the people living within its boundaries. The lives of Non-Muslims are equally important as that of Muslims.

The Prophet (pbuh) said, “Whoever killed a Mu’ahid (a person who is granted the pledge of protection by the Muslims) shall not smell the fragrance of Paradise though its fragrance can be smelt at a distance of 40 years (of travelling).” 4

The fourth Rightly Guide Caliph, Ali (RA) had said: “They pay Jizyah so that the sanctity of their lives and properties may become like that of ours (i.e. the Muslims).” 5

The Dhimmis (i.e. Non-Muslims under covenant) are given the assurance of protection and support of the Islamic state that includes every aggression from outside and every oppression and tyranny within, so that they may live on a stable basis in perfect peace and tranquility; protection from outside is their right in the same way as that of the Muslims.

Imam Qarani Maliki in his book “Al Farooq” cites the saying of Imam Ibn-e-Hazam Zahiri from his book “Maratib-ul-Ijma”:

“If those at war with us catch hold of some dhimmi and bring him to our country, it will be binding on us to come out and give them (our enemies) a fight with our full might and for the protection of the life of that dhimmi, who has been offered protection by Allah and His Messenger. We should lay down our lives since without that much action, allowing them to do with the dhimmis what they like shall be regarded avoiding the proper discharge of our duty (towards the dhimmis).” 6

All of the above evidences prove that Islam condemns the killing of human beings and provides full protection to the non-Muslims under covenant (i.e. dhimmis); not only from within the Islamic state, but also from any type of attack from outside the state.

A striking example of this principle being put into action can be seen from the concern shown by Ibn Taymiyah ® to the Jews and the Christians who were dhimmis:

When Syria came under the domination of Tartars, Shaykh-ul-Islam Ibn Taymiyah ® went to their commander Qatlu Shah; for the release of the prisoners of war. Qatlu Shah agreed to the release of Muslim prisoners, but refused to release dhimmis. Shaykh-ul-Islam ® said that they could not allow Jews and Christians to remain prisoners since they were under the protection and as such their responsibility. “We cannot leave behind any prisoner, Muslim or Non-Muslim”. Qatlu Shah in view of the stern attitude of Ibn Taymiyah ®, set free all of them.

References

1. Surah Al-Maidah 5:32

2. Surah Al-An’aam 6:151

3. Sahih Al-Bukhari Vol.9 Hadith No.6871

4. Sahih Al-Bukhari Vol.9 Hadith No.6914

5. Al-Mughni Vol.13 p.49 & 250

6. Al Farooq Vol.3 p.14-15 n

Source : islamic voice

Salam

Wael

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In the Name of the Father & of the Son & of the Holy Spirit - One God - now & forever - Amen.

May the peace of Christ be with you!

Jesus himself said in the Bible 'Honor your father and mother' and 'Anyone who curses his father or mother must be put to death.' So maybe you wouldn’t kill anyone, but Jesus give the order of killing those who mistreat their parents. You always present your personal opinion which is totally respected, but don’t try to associate that with the Bible.

What exactly is your reason for bringing up that verse (out of context as per usual) in a thread that has absolutely nothing to do with it? Desperation??? Wael, if you wish to throw me off or portray The Faith in a negative light, I'd appreciate it if you went about it with just a tad of integrity. Please don't try to associate your opinion with Scripture until you first study the text.

St Matthew 15:

1 Then Pharisees and scribes came to Jesus from Jerusalem and said,

2 "Why do your disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? For they do not wash their hands when they eat."

3 He answered them, "And why do you transgress the commandment of God for the sake of your tradition?

4 For God commanded, `Honor your father and your mother' (Ex 20:2), and, `He who speaks evil of father or mother, let him surely die' (Ex 20:12; 21:17).

5 But you say, `If any one tells his father or his mother, What you would have gained from me is given to God, he need not honor his father.'

6 So, for the sake of your tradition, you have made void the word of God.

7 You hypocrites!

My "opinion"...

The Pharisees had distorted the true meaning of the 4th Commandment. They taught that Jews who contributed to the temple in cash or kind were absolved from supporting their parents. The people considered it a sacrilege for parents to lay claim to the temple offerings. Elderly parents were left to fend for themselves. Jesus, who is Messiah & God, is the one who can correctly interpret the Law. Here He explains the proper scope of the 4th Commandment exposing the error of Jewish practice with the consequence being separation from God & a spiritual death.

i advise you to read the following article.

I can't believe this!!! Yet another Islamic perspective that conflicts with what I've been taught previously by Muslims on this forum. Would Dr Zakir Naik modify his statement: "Islam condemns the killing of human beings" when dealing with Apostates?

Anyways, I liked the article a lot but it's just one of several Islamic views. I wish Islam had a pope!

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Bismillah: Assalamo Alikum.

What exactly is your reason for bringing up that verse

Because you said that you wouldn’t kill anyone, yet your master and lord gives the order of killing those who do not honor their parents. Anyway, I don’t expect you to listen to me when I quote the Bible.

I can't believe this!!! Yet another Islamic perspective that conflicts with what I've been taught previously by Muslims on this forum. Would Dr Zakir Naik modify his statement: "Islam condemns the killing of human beings" when dealing with Apostates?

We have discussed apostasy many times FHC, I don’t know if you are trying to learn here or you just get used to object anything we say.

I wish Islam had a pope!

It has the Prophet Muhammad pbub who is better than million popes.

Salam

Wael.

Edited by wel_mel_2

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In the Name of the Father & of the Son & of the Holy Spirit - One God - now & forever. Amen.

May the peace of Christ be with you!

Because you said that you wouldn’t kill anyone, yet your master and lord gives the order of killing those who do not honor their parents.

Please refrain from taking the Lord's Name in vain.

Anyway, I don’t expect you to listen to me when I quote the Bible.

Can you blame me? :lol: I'm willing to compromise. You quote... I interpret :thumb:

We have discussed apostasy many times FHC, I don’t know if you are trying to learn here or you just get used to object anything we say.

Is that a yes or a no to my original question... Would Dr Zakir Naik (not wel_mel_2) modify his statement: "Islam condemns the killing of human beings" when dealing with Apostates?

If the answer's 'yes', then he's contradicting himself. If the answer's 'no', then he doesn't share your view on apostasy.

It has the Prophet Muhammad pbub who is better than million popes.

Regardless of who's better or worse. It's a matter of teaching with authority. Muhammad is dead (PBUH) & so are his successors. If you ask me, every Muslim is a messenger/caliph/pope unto himself.

Take care & God bless.

Edited by Faith Hope Charity

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Bismillah: Assalamo Alikum.

Please refrain from taking the Lord's Name in vain.

This is your own imagination FHC, please, I beg you to refrain from accusing me by taking God’s name in vain… (a quick reminder, Lord does not always mean God, plus Jesus pbuh is not God) if you understand the verses YOUR WAY, its fine, but don’t force me to believe in your interpretation which does not make sense to me, and dont try to show us that you and only you can interpret the Bible.

Is that a yes or a no to my original question... Would Dr Zakir Naik (not wel_mel_2) modify his statement: "Islam condemns the killing of human beings" when dealing with Apostates?

If the answer's 'yes', then he's contradicting himself. If the answer's 'no', then he doesn't share your view on apostasy.

You simply did not understand the article, (or you are trying to be picky again to find some faults) the article deals with Non Muslims and NOT apostates. If you want to hear his opinion on apostasy let me know.

meanwhile, please re read, or read scholars explanation regarding apostasy. IslamOnline.Net Apostasy

Regardless of who's better or worse. It's a matter of teaching with authority. Muhammad is dead (PBUH)

Before the Prophet's death he said:

"I have left amongst you two things which, if you hold fast to them, you will never stray, The Qur'an and my Sunnah”

So, we may respect scholars views and opinion, but If such views go against the Word of Allah, or the Sunnah of His Prophet, then they carry no weight, regardless of how learned the scholar might be. I hope you can be able to get this.

Salam

Wael.

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In the Name of he Father & of the Son & of teh Holy Spirit - One God - now & forever. Amen.

May the peace of Christ be with you!

This is your own imagination FHC, please, I beg you to refrain from accusing me by taking God’s name in vain… (a quick reminder, Lord does not always mean God, plus Jesus pbuh is not God)

I detest what you said, but I will use my life to defend your right to say it.

if you understand the verses YOUR WAY, its fine, but don’t force me to believe in your interpretation which does not make sense to me, and dont try to show us that you and only you can interpret the Bible.

You sound like my Protestant friends :lol:

You're the one who inserted a biblical verse into our discussion & had the audacity to preach Christianity to me based on your interpretation. If you quit resorting to such lame tactics, I'll have no reason to counter attack. I can't do my job if you don't do yours.

You simply did not understand the article, (or you are trying to be picky again to find some faults) the article deals with Non Muslims and NOT apostates. If you want to hear his opinion on apostasy let me know.

You know very well that I over-analyse everything. Be careful what you post!

For the millionth time... yes, I want to hear his opinion on apostasy. Is his opinion infallible though?

Aren't all non-Muslims apostates in some sense because we were all born Muslim according to your religion?

meanwhile, please re read, or read scholars explanation regarding apostasy. IslamOnline.Net Apostasy
Thanks! InshaAllah, I'll get around to reading it soon. Do all 4 men share the same view?

Before the Prophet's death he said:

"I have left amongst you two things which, if you hold fast to them, you will never stray, The Qur'an and my Sunnah”

So, we may respect scholars views and opinion, but If such views go against the Word of Allah, or the Sunnah of His Prophet, then they carry no weight, regardless of how learned the scholar might be. I hope you can be able to get this.

Why would scholars choose to go against the Quran & Sunnah? If they all sincerely believe that they are doing Islam justice, yet their views are conflicting, who has the authority to stand up & decisively make a ruling? It seems very relative to me. I don't know who/what to accept.

Anyways, take care of yourself & thanks for everything!

God bless.

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