Karbala

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A kiss, how does this express respect????????
Ritual is a form of language. A kiss is a symbol, a type of language, and it represents an act of respect for the same reason that the word "chair" represents a structure on which one can recline -- because the people who use this symbol believe it does.

As I said above, I agree that it is wrong to make these things wajib -- if the Prophet did not do them we have no basis for insisting that they are a part of Islam. However, there is no harm in these rituals so long as people do not try to do haraam things with them.

salaams

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Lets make one thing clear. Kissing holy objects is not Waajib or necessary nor is it Sunnah. If you were to look at shia books like Mafatih al-Jinan or Adab al-haramain you will not find kissing a part of any ritual recommended. Kissing the Quran or gates of Masjid nabawy is something personal. But it isn't wrong either simply because the Prophet (saW) never did it.

What is the benefit of kissing anything holy?

It sets an atmosphere of reverence. It shows the importance of the object kissed. It also allows an expression of holy connection with the object.

Reverence may be shown in many ways e.g. Kissing, touching, rubbing or bowing.

Here are a few examples.

[shakir 12:100] And he raised his parents upon the throne and they fell down in prostration before him,

Prophet Yusufs (as) brothers prostrated to him in reverence. But the Prophet did not object.

Volume 7, Book 72, Number 750:

Narrated Abu Juhaifa:

I came to the Prophet while he was inside a red leather tent, and I saw Bilal taking the remaining water of the ablution of the Prophet, and the people were taking of that water and rubbing it on their faces; and whoever could not get anything of it, would share the moisture of the hand of his companion (and then rub it on his face).

The sahaba were showing reverence to the water the Prophet used during wudu by rubbing it on themselves. Again the Prophet did not object.

Imam Malik ibn Anas used to kiss old buildings and remains of old foundations.

http://muslim-canada.org/malikischool.html

Imam Ahmad ibn Hanbal was asked about touching and kissing the minbar of the Prophet for the blessing and about seeking the blessing by visiting the grave of the Prophet. He responded by saying: "This matter is not prohibited," as was narrated by ^Abdullah, the son of Imam Ahmad, in his book titled Al­^Ilal wa Ma^rifat ur-Rijal.

There are many other examples with Sahaba and other early generation muslims showing reverence to holy things.

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Bismillah: Assalamo Alikum.

This is the problem when we call anything 'holy' !!! what makes the gates of the Propht's pbuh mosque which were built recently by the saudi govenrment 'holy' ?? what makes the walls of Al baqee 'holy'? what makes the golden door of the Ka'ba 'holy'? and what makes the hard cover of the Qur'an that you kiss 'holy'??

Salam

wael

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:bismillah:

OK wel_mel_2 it doesn't look like we are going to agree. I provided you with some Ayats of Quran and Hadith supporting my view. I wish you would do the same as well.

The gates and walls of the mosque of the Prophet (saw) and al-Baqee are holy because they enclose the remains of the most sublime of humans to have ever lived. Those walls are the closest I will ever physically get to my Prophet(saw) and his Holy Ahlulbayt. All I wanted to do is show my Prophet (saw) and his holy Family my respect and love. Why is that so wrong?

قُل لَّا أَسْأَلُكُمْ عَلَيْهِ أَجْرًا إِلَّا الْمَوَدَّةَ فِي الْقُرْبَى

42:23 Say: I do not ask of you any reward for it but love for my near relatives

:wasalam:

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Bismillah: Assalamo Alikum.

OK wel_mel_2 it doesn't look like we are going to agree. I provided you with some Ayats of Quran and Hadith supporting my view. I wish you would do the same as well.

The gates and walls of the mosque of the Prophet (saw) and al-Baqee are holy because they enclose the remains of the most sublime of humans to have ever lived. Those walls are the closest I will ever physically get to my Prophet(saw) and his Holy Ahlulbayt. All I wanted to do is show my Prophet (saw) and his holy Family my respect and love. Why is that so wrong?

You see brother, regarding Prophet Yusuf pbuh, I too do not mind to bow down to my parents and even kiss their feets out of respect, but after they die, am never going to prostrate to their graves, but I will always keep them in my Du’a.

Plus, the Prophet pbuh taught us how to visit the grave yards, he used to say those words only.

Peace be upon you, inmates of the abodes of the believers and the Muslims, and Allah willing, we will follow you. I pray to Allah for well-being for ourselves and for you.

He did not stop by a particular grave to offer supplication, he did not kiss any of the graves of his wives or daughter although he respected and loved them alot… but his Du’a was for all the believers in general, and so in my humble opinion, we should follow his way and only his way.

I still insist that there is nothing holy about some walls were built hundreds of years after the demise of these great human beings. And I still insist that following their footsteps is the greatest way to show them respect and reverence.

Brother I hope that I did not offend you in anyway.

Salam

Wael.

Edited by wel_mel_2

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Bismillah

as salam alykom Karbala

You must be saying to yourself now those people have stones in their chests rather than hearts filled with no less love and emotions towards our beloved Messenger, teacher, leader, commander Mohamed salla Allah a`lyhee wa sallam. Matter of fact, on the personal level, many at times I wish that I was even a servant in his house, serving him water for Wodu, and doing other chores. Many times I ponder upon his life and how he went for days without food, and months only with water and dates. When I enter into the boundaries of Medina, mixed emotions fill my heart that words cannt describe, O here he lived, here he built the first masjed... and and and. I feel at times that I want to contain all of Medina into my eyes, I feel that I cannt just follow and embrace everything there. Just thinking that I m stepping in the same spots he did step..

We are no less emtional about all of them. you know what Karbala, we are no less respectful and loving to Ali than you are. I mean he gave him the comfort of his eye, he picked him as husband to his beloved daughter. He replaced him when he was only 11 and jeopardised his life. He is a companion after all, may Allah be pleased with all the companions who shouldered the burden of first dawa to give us this gift on a silver plate without any effort on our side.

But we might differ on how to interpret the Ayah you quoted. Kissing doors is certainly not the Mawada he asked for to his household. But it is totally a different comprehensive approach. If u meet one of them, they are many and living among us, some of them reveal themselves others dont. Just show curtosy, establish the relation. All we fear brother is to be dragged into shirkish acts that we dont want to or even intend to certainly. None of us wish this, because this is not why Allah The One Sent His final Messenger. We really need so much to hold a firm grip to aspects of Tawheed. I would like to add that we are no less loving to Ahullbayt, May be we love them more than you imagine Karbala. But at the same time, me personally I try hard not to let this love or anyother love overshadow the love of Allah in my heart. This is what we should be working on, it is a thin line and a trend that must be developed over time very carefuly.

Will come back with more later Insh aAllah.

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Bismillah

Regarding Yaqoub and the act of bowing, Karbala, u seem quite knowledgable and certainly are aware that at certain times those acts were ok, but not any more. Would u care to search about the hadeeth in this regard?????

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:bismillah:

Brother I hope that I did not offend you in anyway.

You must be saying to yourself now those people have stones in their chests rather than hearts filled with no less love and emotions towards our beloved Messenger

Muslimah and Wel_mel_2 I think you guys are great. In fact I think you guys deserve the title "Shia" more than I do. I do not doubt that you guys love AhlulBayt or Ali. I also understand why you don't like acts of kissing or touching because you are afraid of committing Shirk. I am not offended I love discussing with you guys. This whole kissing issue is personal. There are many Shia who dont kiss the gates of Kaaba or Masjid Nabawy. It isn't really a Deeni issue.

But you have to understand why other people would want to do it. You guys express your love differently. I express my love differently. There is nothing wrong with what you do and there is nothing wrong with what I do.

Calling something shirk is a huge accusation. You need evidence. I haven't seen any evidence to suggest kissing holy things is shirk.

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Bismillah

Regarding Yaqoub and the act of bowing, Karbala, u seem quite knowledgable and certainly are aware that at certain times those acts were ok, but not any more. Would u care to search about the hadeeth in this regard?????

I am NOT knowledgable. I just know how to use google and the indexes at the back of books.

You are right "Sajdah Tazeem" was allowed in the Shariah of Prophets before but the Prophet of Mercy (saw) once and for all finally made haram "Sajdah Tazeem" in which one places there hands knees feet and head on the ground infront of anything or anybody but Allah (swt) regardless of Niyyat.

Sajdah Tazeem is haram but not shirk. Sajdah Ibadah is haram and shirk because it also includes niyyat for someone other than Allah (swt).

I dont know of any hadiths that directly prohibit Sajdah Tazeem. I think you guys will have to help me with that. Ill try looking to see if I can find one.

:wasalam:

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Bismillah

as salam alykom Karbala,

Alright, now I got good news, matter of fact, just to confirm something, as I said in the beginning, on the personal level i never had such a close chance to discuss with a shia face to face. I mean talking to one is different from reading from varied sources.

Thus, taking things deeper and elaborate is all for the benefit for us, you and those who come to read.

Excellent news that u dont do those reverence expressions by virtue of a specially developed text. but rather a personal inclination. I m quite familiar with the companions fighting for example to receive the nails of the Messenger when he clipped them. However, and in no way I m trying to argue, such acts can really open gates for further unnecessary paths. You dont know what simple unlearnt people do in Maqams here in Egypt. I can hear u saying that is all i can get hold of from the Messenger prayer and peace be upon him. And i just want to stress, you said it is personal, but are these acts part of any teachings giving by shia scholars?? This is important for me to understand.

OO and on loving him and Ahul bayt. Sobhan Allah for this love instilled in our hearts and we never met them. I keep pondering on their lives. One of the situations, I know i m getting off topic, if Dan comes here i will be blamed. but any way, one of the situations that I always think of and easily brings tears to my eyes, when his daughter Zainab sent him her mother's necklace to redeem her husband who was among prisoners taken by Muslims after she joined her father in Medina and before Badr. He looked down and got her message. His eyes were filled with tears for he knows how much this necklace is dear to her heart. And asked the muslims to free him and if they wanted to return her her money. Ya Allah, what a family....

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And i just want to stress, you said it is personal, but are these acts part of any teachings giving by shia scholars?? This is important for me to understand.

You are right. These acts are personal. I have found no commandment or ritual in Islam quoted by Shia scholars to make these acts a part of relgion. They are not in Mafatih al-jinan which almost every Shia has in his/her house.

Concerning AhlulBayt.

Love for AhlulBayt isn't a choice it is necessary for every muslim according to Quran 42:23. This is the one thing the Prophet of Mercy (saw) asked in return for the toils of prophethood.

They are unique from others since they have been declared as purified by God or sinless.

إِنَّمَا يُرِيدُ اللَّهُ لِيُذْهِبَ عَنكُمُ الرِّجْسَ أَهْلَ الْبَيْتِ وَيُطَهِّرَكُمْ تَطْهِيرًا

33:33 Allah only desires to keep away the uncleanness from you, O people of the House! and to purify you a (thorough) purifying.

It isn't a matter of just love or admiration the Prophet of Mercy (saw) ordered us to follow them as they are part of the 2 Thaqalayn (weighty things).

Sahih Muslim

Book 031, Number 5920:

but I am leaving among you two weighty things: the one being the Book of Allah in which there is right guidance and light, so hold fast to the Book of Allah and adhere to it. He exhorted (us) (to hold fast) to the Book of Allah and then said: The second are the members of my household I remind you (of your duties) to the members of my family.

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/h...im/031.smt.html

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who is shia??what does mean that?it is a group of muslims?

Dear Sarah

Assalamo alykom

I do`nt know if you find an answer to your question or not,but I want to tell you something Sarah,

in islam there`s no groups,it should be one and only one group.

Allah ordered us not to be devided or discordant nor split into factions.

(Holly Quran 42/13).

If this is happened,it is wrong.

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Rock I think you are right. Sarah we are all muslims. Shia is simply a name some muslims like to give themselves. It means "follower". However one thing we should all think about which some muslims tend to ignore is the position of "AhlulBayt" in Islam.

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Bismillah

as salam alykom

Karbala, I m not putting words on my sister's Umm Zacharaía's mouth, but in her post 51 she asked what made u change to Shia, and your reply was that you are not qualified to discuss Sunni traditions. I think what she wanted to ask and I also think that you might be having the answer, is that what in the Shia teaching was unavailable in Sunni teachings based on this u changed?? Till you get the reply, from there we continue Insh a Allah.

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My journey from the school of Ahl Al-Sunnah to school of AhlulBayt is a strange one and cant be necessarily pinned down to a single teaching or event.

The most important thing no doubt is the Shahada which shias and sunnis are united on. However the Shias say that after Tawhid and Nubuwwah comes Imamah which is necessary. Every nation must have a guide or a warner living amongst them so the people cannot complain to Allah that they did not have a leader to guide them. This role of Imamah is assigned to AhlulBayt.

AhlulBayt:

Although Sunnis no doubt love and respect AhlulBayt, Shias go further and assign to AhlulBayt the importance of being the ones responsible for the preservation of religion and the true interpreters of the Quran. I have already explained the concept of Thaqalayn according the hadith of the Prophet(saw)

Sahih Muslim

Book 031, Number 5920:

but I am leaving among youtwo weighty things: the one being the Book of Allah in which there is right guidance and light, so hold fast to the Book of Allah and adhere to it. He exhorted (us) (to hold fast) to the Book of Allah and then said: The second are to the members of my family. I remind you (of your duties) to the members of my family.

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/h...im/031.smt.html

Shias also describe AhlulBayt as Ma3soom or sinless according Surat Al-Ahzab:33

إِنَّمَا يُرِيدُ اللَّهُ لِيُذْهِبَ عَنكُمُ الرِّجْسَ أَهْلَ الْبَيْتِ وَيُطَهِّرَكُمْ تَطْهِيرًا

33:33 Allah only desires to keep away the uncleanness from you, O people of the House! and to purify you a (thorough) purifying

These beliefs are perhaps what makes me Shia rather than Sunni. I dont like to use sectarian terms because a true "Sunni" is a true "shia" and a true "Shia" is a true "sunni". We are all muslims and we must all strive to be "Momins" and even "Muttaqeen".

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Alsalam alaykum wa rahmat Allah wa barakatuh,

Wow, that was one long read. I can't believe that I even considered trying to comment on every single thing I've read this far. I'd probably have to quit university in order to have the free time for that.

Anyways, a few things have caught my attention. Karbala, I'm feeling that you are somewhat sincere in your message, and I'd feel somewhat surprised if nobody in this message boards has thought about converting to Shiasm yet. You've replied to a lot of the arguments that were made against the Shi'ite belief extremely well, and you've established that there is almost no difference between both the Shias and the Sunnis.

Yet, I'd like to remind you that your audience in this website are mainly Sunnis. Therefore, in order to open their minds up to your points of views you should instead use Sunni references.

I've noticed that you've used:

http://www.almizan.org/new/Articles.asp?TitleText=Articles

http://muslim-canada.org/malikischool.html

There are tons of Sunni websites about the interpretation of the Qur'an. I'm also sure that there are tons of biographies about the leaders of the four schools. For the sake of credibility, please use Sunni sources, for you've been doing a great job thus far.

Karbala: Every nation must have a guide or a warner living amongst them so the people cannot complain to Allah that they did not have a leader to guide them. This role of Imamah is assigned to AhlulBayt.

Interesting. I think you're one of the first Shi'ites that I've met who has said that this openly. Yet, I will ask, who is this guide and warner that is living amongst us today?

33:33 Allah only desires to keep away the uncleanness from you, O people of the House! and to purify you a (thorough) purifying

I'm sure that you are familiar with the argument that I'm going to make. Nonetheless, I think the other brothers and sisters in the forums should be aware of the Sunni argument.

Let's examine the context in Suratul Ahzaab:

30- O ye wives of the Prophet! Whosoever of you committeth manifest lewdness, the punishment for her will be doubled, and that is easy for Allah.

31- And whosoever of you is submissive unto Allah and His messenger and doeth right, We shall give her reward twice over, and We have prepared for her a rich provision.

32- O ye wives of the Prophet! Ye are not like any other women. If ye keep your duty (to Allah), then be not soft of speech, lest he in whose heart is a disease aspire (to you), but utter customary speech.

33- And stay in your houses. Bedizen not yourselves with the bedizenment of the Time of Ignorance. Be regular in prayer, and pay the poor-due, and obey Allah and His messenger. Allah's wish is but to remove uncleanness far from you, O Folk of Household and cleanse you with a thorough cleansing.

34- And bear in mind that which is recited in your houses of the revelations of Allah and wisdom. Lo! Allah is Subtile, Aware.

Well, at least to me, it is completely obvious that Allah (swt) is including the wives of the Prophet (pbuh) as folks of his household. According to my understanding, the Shi'ites disagree with this interpretation because of their negative views towards some of the wives of the Prophet (pbuh).

I think I'll stop with this for now. I eagerly await your reply.

Alsalam alaykum wa rahmat Allah wa barakatuh.

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:bismillah:

:wasalam:

Brother Hadji you seem quite knowledgeable and I suspect that you are already familiar witht the argument I will present. But I will present it anyways.

Yet, I will ask, who is this guide and warner that is living amongst us today?

The Shia maintain that this guide or warner who lives amongst us today must fulfill the certain conditions.

1. He is the awatied Savior Mahdi who will appear and fill the earth with peace and righteousness.

2. He is the twelfth successor in a line of Caliphs.

3. He is from Quraish, from the AhlulBayt through the lineage of Fatima.

4. he bears the same name as the Prophet.

Sahih Muslim

Book 020, Number 4477:

It has been narrated on the authority of Jabir b. Samura who said: I joined the company of the Holy Prophet (may peace be upon him) with my father and I heard him say: This Caliphate will not end until there have been twelve Caliphs among them. The narrator said: Then he (the Holy Prophet) said something that I could not follow. I said to my father: What did he say? He said: He has said: All of them will be from the Quraish.

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/h...t.html#020.4477

Sahih Muslim

Book 041, Number 6961:

He (Jabir b. Abdullah) kept quiet for a while and then reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) having said There would be a caliph in the last (period) of my Ummah who would freely give handfuls of wealth to thd people wiothout counting it. I said to Abu Nadra and Abu al-'Ala: DO you mean 'Umarb. 'Abd al-Aziz? They said: No (he would be Imam Mahdi.)

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/h...t.html#041.6961

Book 36, Number 4269:

Narrated Abdullah ibn Mas'ud:

The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: The world will not pass away before the Arabs are ruled by a man of my family whose name will be the same as mine.

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/h...t.html#036.4269

Sunan Abu Dawud

Book 36, Number 4271:

Narrated Umm Salamah, Ummul Mu'minin:

The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: The Mahdi will be of my family, of the descendants of Fatimah.http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/abudawud/036.sat.html#036.4271

These conditions we believe are fulfilled by the man M.O.H.A.M.M.A.D ibn al-Hasan al-Mahdi al-Hujjah who we say is in "Ghaibah" or occultation similar to the occultation of the Prophet Khidr and Yusuf (as).

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Well, at least to me, it is completely obvious that Allah (swt) is including the wives of the Prophet (pbuh) as folks of his household. According to my understanding, the Shi'ites disagree with this interpretation because of their negative views towards some of the wives of the Prophet (pbuh).

Shias do not exclude the wives from AhlulBayt due to negative views. Allow me to argue how the wives are excluded based on Quran and Sunni literature.

I am not an expert in Arabic infact Rock and Muslimah are in the process of teaching me at this moment. However Inshallah I know enough to comment on a subtle but important grammatical usage of the Quran.

1. The grammatical gender changes from 33:30 to 33:33.

33:30 O ye wives of the Prophet! Whosoever of you committeth manifest lewdness, the punishment for her will be doubled, and that is easy for Allah.

33:30 reads in arabic

يَا نِسَاء النَّبِيِّ مَن يَأْتِ مِنكُنَّ بِفَاحِشَةٍ مُّبَيِّنَةٍ يُضَاعَفْ لَهَا الْعَذَابُ ضِعْفَيْنِ وَكَانَ ذَلِكَ عَلَى اللَّهِ يَسِيرًا

Picking up one of the pronouns مِنكُنَّ we can see that it is in the female plural. Hence the wives are exclusively being addressed here.

33:33 Allah's wish is but to remove uncleanness far from you, O Folk of the Household, and cleanse you with a thorough cleansing.

This reads in Arabic

إِنَّمَا يُرِيدُ اللَّهُ لِيُذْهِبَ عَنكُمُ الرِّجْسَ أَهْلَ الْبَيْتِ وَيُطَهِّرَكُمْ تَطْهِيرًا

Again picking up one of the pronouns عَنكُمُ the tense as suddenly switched from female plural to masculine plural.

If one was reading the verse in context in arabic they would suddenly notice the change in gender.

According to the rules of arabic grammar however it is still possible for the wives to be included in 33:33 since only one male is required in a group to become masculine plural. It is also possible however that the wives are excluded. Hence we need further investigation.

However in the verses preceding 33:33 we see the wives being warned of committing "fashiha" which can mean great sins according to According to Zamakhshari in a footnote in the commentary of Mohammad Asad http://www.islamicity.com/quransearch/show...sp?chap=33¬e=33 . Does it make sense that Allah threatens punishment for the wives of the Prophet due to "Fashiha" and then declares them Pure in 33:33?

Conclusive evidence that the wives are not included in AhlulBayt comes from Sahih Muslim

Book 031, Number 5920:

He (Husain) said to Zaid: Who are the members of his household? Aren't his wives the members of his family? Thereupon he said: His wives are the members of his family (but here) the members of his family are those for whom acceptance of Zakat is forbidden. And he said: Who are they? Thereupon he said: 'Ali and the offspring of 'Ali, 'Aqil and the offspring of 'Aqil and the offspring of Ja'far and the offspring of 'Abbas. Husain said: These are those for whom the acceptance of Zakat is forbidden. Zaid said: Yes.

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/h...im/031.smt.html

Book 031, Number 5923:

We said: Who are amongst the members of the household? Aren't the wives (of the Holy Prophet) included amongst the members of his house hold? Thereupon he said: No, by Allah, a woman lives with a man (as his wife) for a certain period; he then divorces her and she goes back to her parents and to her people; the members of his household include his ownself and his kith and kin (who are related to him by blood) and for him the acceptance of Zakat is prohibited.

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I am familiar with most of these hadeeths, but I just wanted to point out there even though the number "twelve" is found in the first hadeeth it doesn't mean that they imply that the Imams are the same Imams as seen by the Shi'ites.

For example, the hadeeth doesn't mention any of the things that you've made clear in the Shi'ite definition of an Imam from the first page of the thread:

1. An Imam or Khalifah is necessary at all times as it is demanded by the Lutf (Grace) of Allah(swt)

2. The Imam must be appointed only by Allah(swt).

3. The Imam must be Ma'sum or infallible.

4. The Imam must be Afhal or superior (in terms of knowledge piety etc)

Yet, I do agree that Al-Mahdi will come, that he is from Quraish, and that his name is Mohammed.

These conditions we believe are fulfilled by the man M.O.H.A.M.M.A.D ibn al-Hasan al-Mahdi al-Hujjah who we say is in "Ghaibah" or occultation similar to the occultation of the Prophet Khidr and Yusuf (as).

A few quick question about Mohammed ibn Al-Hasan Al-Mahdi Al-Hujjah... If he is indeed the final Imam according to the Shi'ites. Then what is he doing right now that makes him so "necessary at all times?"

1. An Imam or Khalifah is necessary at all times as it is demanded by the Lutf (Grace) of Allah(swt)

You mentioned that he is in occultation. How can he be necessary if he is hidden from everyone?

Every nation must have a guide or a warner living amongst them so the people cannot complain to Allah that they did not have a leader to guide them.

How will he be able to guide and warn? Will the people that have been around at the time of the occultation of Al-Mahdi and died before he reveals himself complain to Allah (swt) about not having a leader to guide them?

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According to the rules of arabic grammar however it is still possible for the wives to be included in 33:33 since only one male is required in a group to become masculine plural. It is also possible however that the wives are excluded. Hence we need further investigation.

I agree. No objections yet.

Does it make sense that Allah threatens punishment for the wives of the Prophet due to "Fashiha" and then declares them Pure in 33:33?

Well, first of all, the verse doesn't say that the wives of the Prophet (pbuh) have committed any immoral acts. While verses 30 and 31 are establishing that the wives of the Prophet (pbuh) will get double the punishment and double the reward. Thus: 33:32 O wives of the Prophet! You are not like any of the [other] women... Once again, the purpose of verse 30 isn't condemning the wives of the Prophet (pbuh).

Furthermore, Allah (swt) hasn't only declared the wives of the Prophet pure in verse 33 alone:

24:26 Women impure are for men impure, and men impure for women impure and women of purity are for men of purity, and men of purity are for women of purity: these are not affected by what people say: for them is forgiveness, and a provision honourable.

After examining this verse, the only way to accept that the wives of Mohammed (pbuh) are impure is by accepting by saying that Mohammed (pbuh) was impure as well.

Anyways...

Conclusive evidence that the wives are not included in AhlulBayt comes from Sahih Muslim

Well, apparently, there are different interpretations to what a family can be. In some instances,

He (Husain) said to Zaid: Who are the members of his household? Aren't his wives the members of his family? Thereupon he said: His wives are the members of his family...

While in other instances,

Thereupon he said: No, by Allah, a woman lives with a man (as his wife) for a certain period;

Opinions on whether or not a wife is considered as family differs from person to person and situation to situation. Yet, what is most important here, and I'm sure that you'll agree with me, is what Allah (swt) says about wives their positions in families.

7:83 Thereupon We saved him and his household except his wife, who was among those that stayed behind

27:57 Thereupon We saved him and his household - all but his wife, whom We willed to be among those that stayed behind -

Please take note that the word used for household in Arabic is "Ahl". It means family and is the same word used in 33:33.

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Salamun Alaikum Wa Rahmatullah wa Barakatuh.

These posts are going to get lengthy so bare with me.

Well, first of all, the verse doesn't say that the wives of the Prophet (pbuh) have committed any immoral acts.

I never claimed they did. All I meant was that it is a contradiction to lay down a punishment for a possible "fashiha" and then in the following verse claim that they are Ma3soom (infallible or purified of sins.) in 33:33.

Regarding 24:26 I think you are using the translation of Abdullah Yusufali. Compare the arabic of 33:33 and 24:26

24:26 الْخَبِيثَاتُ لِلْخَبِيثِينَ وَالْخَبِيثُونَ لِلْخَبِيثَاتِ وَالطَّيِّبَاتُ لِلطَّيِّبِينَ وَالطَّيِّبُونَ لِلطَّيِّبَاتِ

33:33 إِنَّمَا يُرِيدُ اللَّهُ لِيُذْهِبَ عَنكُمُ الرِّجْسَ أَهْلَ الْبَيْتِ وَيُطَهِّرَكُمْ تَطْهِيرًا

You can clerly see the expressions used are completely different. 33:33 uses the terms derived from the arabic root "THR" which literally pure. 24:26 uses derivatives of Khayith and Tayyib which actually dont mean pure but are better translated as "Bad" and "Good".

You can compare the translations of Shakir, Pickthall and Yusufali for yourself.

[shakir 24:26] Bad women .are for bad men and bad men are for bad women. Good women are for good men and good men are for good women

[Yusufali 24:26] Women impure are for men impure, and men impure for women impure and women of purity are for men of purity, and men of purity are for women of purity: these are not affected by what people say: for them there is forgiveness, and a provision honourable.

[Pickthal 24:26] Vile women are for vile men, and vile men for vile women. Good women are for good men, and good men for good women; such are innocent of that which people say: For them is pardon and a bountiful provision.

Hence 24:26 has nothing to do with "Purification" or 33:33. Infact Shia scholars have used 24:26 to defend the honour of the Prophets wives and rebuke any accusations of Adultery. The context of this verse is clearly adultery. If we were to accept your interpretation that it means that "impure" wives are for "impure" husbands in terms of generality then we would have a hard time explaining verses 66:10 and 66:11 where "impure wives" are married to Prophets and a "Pure" wife is married to Pharoah.

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Opinions on whether or not a wife is considered as family differs from person to person and situation to situation. Yet, what is most important here, and I'm sure that you'll agree with me, is what Allah (swt) says about wives their positions in families.

7:83 Thereupon We saved him and his household except his wife, who was among those that stayed behind

27:57 Thereupon We saved him and his household - all but his wife, whom We willed to be among those that stayed behind -

Please take note that the word used for household in Arabic is "Ahl". It means family and is the same word used in 33:33.

I will disagree with you slightly. The word used in 33:33 is "AhlulBayt"

"AhlulBayt" are a specific group of people pointed in the Quran and simply the relationship of marriage does not include one in it. This was the same term used in the hadith and it is obvious that the Quran and Hadith are mentioning the same group of people. Hence if in the hadith says that in this instance the wives are not included in "AhlulBayt" then I think that is pretty clear.

Here is the Hadith in arabic using the word AhlulBayt very clearly. If this is indeed the same group of people as in Quran 33:33 then the wives are definitely not included.

‏ وَفِيهِ فَقُلْنَا مَنْ أَهْلُ بَيْتِهِ نِسَاؤُهُ قَالَ لاَ وَايْمُ اللَّهِ إِنَّ الْمَرْأَةَ تَكُونُ مَعَ الرَّجُلِ الْعَصْرَ مِنَ الدَّهْرِ ثُمَّ يُطَلِّقُهَا فَتَرْجِعُ إِلَى أَبِيهَا وَقَوْمِهَا أَهْلُ بَيْتِهِ أَصْلُهُ وَعَصَبَتُهُ الَّذِينَ حُرِمُوا الصَّدَقَةَ بَعْدَهُ

I can only anticipate your next argument (im guessing it might involve 28:12 or 11:73). However I will leave it here.

Edited by Karbala

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