Karbala

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Muslimah none of those ayahs you quoted confer any general virtue for the sahaba. They are limited in scope to the true believers amongst the sahaba. You know as well as I do that there existed amongst the sahaba certain hypocrites as well.

who are those scholars or who you and me are to allow ourselves to sit in comfort, enjoying the luxury of the 21st century and crticise those people? what exactly is the position of those scholars compred to those people whom may Allah be pleased with all of them fought, endured hardships, immigrated, faced tyranny for Islam to sustain???

Muslimah I dont wanmt to get into an argument about certain Sahaba, most specifically Abu Bakr and Omar since these are the two that create the most controversy. These arguments never tend to end well. If you insist on discussing about them I will happilly tell you why I am not too fond of their actions in islamic history, but my advice is it isnt worth it.

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Bismillah: Assalamo Alikum.

Ps even if they never practiced Muta doesnt make Muta haram, there are traditions narrated from the very same people establishing the permissiblity of Muta.

I just thought to share with you all these hadiths regarding Mut'a marriage:

Sahih Bukhari Volume 5, Book 59, Number 527:

Narrated 'Ali bin Abi Talib:

On the day of Khaibar, Allah's Apostle forbade the Mut'a (i.e. temporary marriage) and the eating of donkey-meat.

Sahih Bukhari Volume 9, Book 86, Number 91:

Narrated Muhammad bin 'Ali:

'Ali was told that Ibn 'Abbas did not see any harm in the Mut'a marriage. 'Ali said,

"Allah's Apostle forbade the Mut'a marriage on the Day of the battle of Khaibar

and he forbade the eating of donkey's meat." Some people said, "If one, by a tricky way,

marries temporarily, his marriage is illegal." Others said, "The marriage is valid but its

condition is illegal."

Sahih Muslim Book 008, Number 3259:

Rabi' b. Sabra reported on the authority of his father that Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) prohibited the contracting of temporary marriage.

Sahih Muslim Book 008, Number 3259:

Rabi' b. Sabra reported on the authority of his father that Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) prohibited the contracting of temporary marriage.

Sahih Muslim Book 021, Number 4763:

'Ali b. Abi Talib reported that Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) forbade on the Day of Khaibar temporary marriage (Muta') with women and the eating of the flesh of domestic asses.

Book 008, Number 3262:

Sabra al-Juhanni reported on the authority of his father: Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) prohibited the contracting of temporary marriage and said: Behold, it is forbidden from this very day of yours to the Day of Resurrection, and he who has given something (as a dower) should not take it back.

Book 008, Number 3264:

Malik narrated this hadith on the authority of the same chain of trans- witters that 'Ali b.

Abil Talib said to a person: You are a person led astray; Allah's Messenger (may peace

be upon him) forbade us (to do Mut'a),

Book 008, Number 3265:

Muhammad b. 'Ali narrated on the authority of his father 'Ali that Allah's Apostle (may

peace be upon him) on the Day of Khaibar prohibited for ever the contracting of

temporary marriage and eating of the flesh of the domestic asses.

Book 008, Number 3266:

'Ali (Allah be pleased with him) heard that Ibn Abbas (Allah be pleased with them) gave some relaxation in connection with the contracting of temporary marriage, whereupon he said: Don't be hasty (in your religious verdict), Ibn 'Abbas, for Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) on the Day of Khaibar prohibited for ever the doing of it-And eating of the flesh of domestic asses.

My question now to Karbala is that if Muta marriage is the marriage that is destined for divorce (because you can marry a girl for a couple of hours or days, however, the intention behind this marriage is pleasure AND then divorce), and so why the Shi'ah do condemn divorce and allow Mut'a which is beginning of divorce?

I found also some Shi'ah sources speaking about how hateful divorce is in the sight of Allah: here are the sources for your review:

"It is a condition of divorce firstly that, at the time of divorce, the woman is clean of her monthly period. Secondly, there must be two just witnesses present when the contract of divorce is recited. Divorce is divinely detested. The Prophet of God tells us: "The most-detested permissible (thing) before God is divorce".

http://www.iranchamber.com/personalities/m..._principles.pdf

Although divorce is a lawful act, it is the most detested and worst of adeeds.

Imam Sadiq (AS) stated: ‘Get married but, do not divorce, because a divorce would tremble the ‘Arsh (empyrean) of Allah’.”

“lmäm Sädiq (AS) also stated: ‘Allah likes the house which is inhabited in the wake of marriage and dislikes the house which is abandoned in the wake of divorce. .There is nothing more detestable to Allah than a divorce’

Marriage is not like buying a pair of shoes and socks that whenever not liked one disposes the shoes and buys an (pair of shoes. Marriage is a spiritual covenant that two pet make in order to stay together like friends, sympathies au lovers till their death. It is based on these great hopes tb young girl leaves her parents and joins her husband.

A man makes efforts and works hard on the basis of s a divine covenant. He pays for his wedding and buys necessary goods for his new life and works for his comfort.

Marriage is not a lustful affair and a couple cannot destroy it for trivial excuses. Although divorce is lawful, it 1 seriously detested and people are recommended to avoid it much as possible.

Unfortunately, this very detestable act has become so common in Islamic countries and the foundations of family units have become so shaky that there is generally little faith in marriage any more.

Divorce is permitted but only in very exceptional and compelling circumstances.

“The Prophet (SA) of Allah stated: Jibril (Gabriel) advised me about women so much that I thought one should not divorce them except if they commit adultery’.”26’ (this is a Hadith from Prophet Muhammad!)

http://www.al-shia.com/html/eng/books/principles/014.html

How could these same sources allow Mut'a which is some kind of a 'divorced marriage' ?

Salam

Wael.

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Wasalam,

I have seen all those hadiths before and ill raise 2 reasons why they don't prove anything.

1. As a principle a hadith cannot abrogate a command given in the Quran. Muta has been allowed in the Quran ref: 4:24

2. The hadiths themselves conflict greatly (ill get to that now)

Firstly there are reports from certain Sahaba that Muta' was practiced during the time of the Prophet(saw) during the time of the First Caliph and was only banned during the time of the 2nd Caliph.

Sahih of Muslim: Book 008, Number 3250

Abu Nadra reported:

While I was in the company of Jabir b. Abdullah, a person came to him and said that Ibn 'Abbas and Ibn Zubair differed on the two types of Mut'as (Tamattu' of Hajj 1846 and Tamattu' with women), whereupon Jabir said: We used to do these two during the lifetime of Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him). Umar then forbade us to do them, and so we did not revert to them.

Sahih al Muslim: Book 008, Number 3249

Jabir b. 'Abdullah reported:

We contracted temporary marriage giving a handful of (tales or flour as a dower during the lifetime of Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) and durnig the time of Abu Bakr until 'Umar forbade it in the case of 'Amr b. Huraith.

wel_mel_2 you have quoted 9 ahadith.

6 hadiths refer to a common event in which it is claimed that the Prophet(saw) forbade it on the day of Khaibar along with Donkey meat. Interestingly Ibn Umar refers to the same event and doesn't mention the forbidding of muta'

Sahih al Muslim, Volume 5, Book 59, Number 526

Narrated Ibn Umar:

On the day of Khaiber, Allah's Apostle forbade the eating of garlic and the meat of donkeys.

The other 3 hadith come from Sabra al-Juhanni or Ibn Sabra. Interestingly the year Sabra mentions it was forbidden was the year 630AD during the day of victory. Notice already the discrepancy with the year Ali claimed which was 629AD during the conquest of Khaibar.

Sahih al-Muslim Book 008, Number 3260

Rabi' b. Sabra reported on the authority of his father that Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) forbade on the Day of Victory to contract temporary marriage with women.

Now a common claim from Sunnis is that Mohammad(saw) forbade and allowed Muta' several times based on the necessities of the time and that he eventually forbade it forever. However if you look at the texts of when he forbade it during Khaibar and during the victory of Mecca both of them mention that muta' was forbidden FOREVER from that point onwards.

From the hadiths you quoted yourself:

Book 008, Number 3265:

Muhammad b. 'Ali narrated on the authority of his father 'Ali that Allah's Apostle (may

peace be upon him) on the Day of Khaibar prohibited forever the contracting of

temporary marriage and eating of the flesh of the domestic ass.

Book 008, Number 3262:

Sabra al-Juhanni reported on the authority of his father: Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) prohibited the contracting of temporary marriage and said: Behold, it is forbidden from this very day of yours to the Day of Resurrection, and he who has given something (as a dower) should not take it

Conclusion: There is a clear conflict in the Hadiths and cannot be relied upon to resolve the issue of the the forbidding of Muta'.

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My question now to Karbala is that if Muta marriage is the marriage that is destined for divorce (because you can marry a girl for a couple of hours or days, however, the intention behind this marriage is pleasure AND then divorce), and so why the Shi'ah do condemn divorce and allow Mut'a which is beginning of divorce?

Simple answer. There is no such thing as divorce in Muta' marriage. Look up the true definition of divorce.

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Bismillah: Assalamo Alikum.

'Karbala'

“look up the TRUE definition of divorce"

I followed your advise:

divorce

• noun the legal dissolution of a marriage.

• verb 1 legally dissolve one's marriage with. 2 (divorce from) detach or dissociate (something) from.

AskOxford.Com

So what do you call the dissolution of Mut'a marriage? is it the ILLEGAL dissolution?

Muta has been allowed in the Quran ref: 4:24

Qur'an 4:24 does not say that "Mut'a is allowed" as you have claimed, plus this verse is reproduced within context and surrounding verses. You can read from verses 19 up to 27 and you will see that:

(1) A marriage contract must consist of more than an arrangement for satisfaction of lusts (Quran 4:24, 25, and 27);

(2) Quran 4:24 merely states that "all others are lawful," i.e. one may marry any partner to whom marriage is not otherwise prohibited in the Quran. It does not say that Mut'a is alright, and the verse's discussion of the dowery does not imply the legality of Mut'a but merely recites the general rule that the dowery contracted for, cannot be reduced except by mutual agreement.

Moreover, any argument based on Qura'n 4:24 fails to address the fundamental incompatibility of Mut'a with Quranic criteria for divorce. While Islam does not require OBJECTIVE proof of some fault such as "mental cruelty" or "adultery" as a condition for divorce, the Quran makes it clear that there must be some "disagreement," "incompatibility" or "conflict" between the spouses.

Qur'an 4:35

If ye fear a BREACH BETWEEN THEM TWAIN, appoint (two) arbiters, one from his family, and the other from hers; if they wish for peace, Allah will cause their reconciliation: For Allah hath full knowledge, and is acquainted with all things.

4:128

If a wife fears CRUELTY OR DESERTION ON HER HUSBAND'S PART, there is no blame on them if they arrange an amicable settlement between themselves; and such settlement is best; even though men's souls are swayed by greed. But if ye do good and practise self-restraint, Allah is well-acquainted with all that ye do.

4:129

Ye are NEVER ABLE TO BE FAIR AND JUST AS BETWEEN WOMEN, even if it is your ardent desire: But turn not away (from a woman) altogether, so as to leave her (as it were) hanging (in the air). If ye come to a friendly understanding, and practice self-restraint, Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.

4:130

BUT IF THEY DISAGREE (AND MUST PART), Allah will provide abundance for all from His all-reaching bounty: for Allah is He that careth for all and is Wise.

What I am trying to say is that, in Mut'a, the marriage does not end due to disagreement between spouses as the Qur'an explained, but rather, because they have AGREED IN ADVANCE to end up the marriage!!

So far I can see no straight forward authorization from the Qur'an that allows Mut'a marriage.

By the way, I did not want to comment over your statment of "Now a common claim from Sunnis etc...." because I don't consider myself to be SUNNI or any other name except the name which Allah has chosen for us, and that is MUSLIM.

Who is better in speech than one who calls to Allah, works righteousness, and says, 'I am of those who are MUSLIMS ?' NOT SUNNIS, NOT SHI'AH But Muslims.

Salam

Wael.

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Bismillah

Ok its been a while so forgive me if im not up to speed with everything.

In His Name the Most High

However In Shi'i narrations there is mention of certain merits of visiting the shrine of Lady Fatima Ma'suma in Qom,

From Bihar al-Anwar by Allama Majlisi

وَسَتُدْفَنُ فيها امْرَأةٌ مِنْ اَوْلادى تُسَمّى فاطِمَةَ، فَمَنْ زارَها وَجَبَتْ لَهُ الجنّة

“A lady from my children, by the name of Fatima will be buried in Qum. Whoever visits her [shrine], will certainly be admitted to Heaven.”

Please note that the Arabic version of the hadeeth does not contain any reference to Qum. Just as the hadeeth included in Ibn Katheer that you didnt comment on. The one regarding the dust of Karbala. That is if the hadeeth is correct. Sobhan Allah, the language of the hadeeth is really very obviously made up. This is not the language style of our beloved teacher and Messenger salla Allah a`lyhee wa sallam. Here you are refering to Fatima Bint Mussa may Allah be pleased with all of them ?? correct???? Can you also tell me who is the narrator. I mean a chain of narrators is not included in this hadeeth.

Sorry to say Karbala, but I really observed from your valuable input here, I mean on the personal level, how the Shia school is founded on a set of Quran interpretations, hadeeth ..etc put together for political reasons.

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Bismillah

Wael, Karbala is correct, in Mutaa there is no divorce. This is another issue. The contract is automatically annuled when the determined time is due. Got this point?? I further added today for better explanation: contract is automatically disolved.

Edited by Muslimah

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Please note that the Arabic version of the hadeeth does not contain any reference to Qum. Just as the hadeeth included in Ibn Katheer that you didnt comment on. The one regarding the dust of Karbala. That is if the hadeeth is correct. Sobhan Allah, the language of the hadeeth is really very obviously made up. This is not the language style of our beloved teacher and Messenger salla Allah a`lyhee wa sallam. Here you are refering to Fatima Bint Mussa may Allah be pleased with all of them ?? correct???? Can you also tell me who is the narrator. I mean a chain of narrators is not included in this hadeeth.

The Narrator of the Hadith is Imam Ja'far Al-Sadiq the 6th Imam of the Shi'ites. The point I was trying to make Muslimah is that there does exist within Shi'ite literature justification to visit the shrine in Qum. We don't do it just out of a whim. Get it?

Sorry to say Karbala, but I really observed from your valuable input here, I mean on the personal level, how the Shia school is founded on a set of Quran interpretations, hadeeth ..etc put together for political reasons.

I agree the Shi'i Sunni split is largely political, its to do with divine leadership. In my view politics ie rightful leadership is an inseparable part of Islam and hence extremely important.

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Quran 4:24 merely states that "all others are lawful," i.e. one may marry any partner to whom marriage is not otherwise prohibited in the Quran. It does not say that Mut'a is alright, and the verse's discussion of the dowery does not imply the legality of Mut'a but merely recites the general rule that the dowery contracted for, cannot be reduced except by mutual agreement.

Herein lies the fallacy of reading translations of the Quran. Wael take a closer look at the Arabic.

4:24 explicitly allows Muta'

فَمَا اسْتَمْتَعْتُم بِهِ

The underlined word (Istamta'tum) is a derivative of the word Muta'. The literal translation here is "Then as to those whom you do Muta' with, give them their dowries as appointed" other verses differentiate conventional marriage by using the derivatives of the word "Nikah".

So you see Wael. The Quran here permits Muta' through the mutual agreement of dowries. Here is my challenge:

Only another verse from the Quran can abrogate another verse in the Quran, Muta' has been allowed in 4:24 show me a verse where Muta' has been abrogated, forbidden or replaced.

Your Divorce argument doesn't follow. It is a well known legal fact that there is no divorce in Muta' (you must remember that Muta' was definitely practiced and allowed at some points during the time of the Prophet(saw)) A Divorce involves certain protocols and formulas none of which apply in Muta'. Muslimah is right its more like an annulment.

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Bismillah

Karbala, i was waiting for you to bring this up. Because I knew that the Muta issue is based on this particular word in this noble Ayah. let me try to help you Karbala and of course you dont have to take my word. I will just try to do my job being a native Arabic speaker so that Allah Wont ask me why didnt I? Karbala, the اسْتَمْتَعْتُم here refers to consumating the marriage. Since as you are aware, Allah Legalised divorce before marriage consumation as explained in Baqarah. I m typing this at midnigh tomorrow INsh aAllah I will quote the Ayah. Allah in this Ayah differentiate between divorce before and after consumation. However, because Allah's language is incomparable, in that Ayah he is refering to the act of consumation in a polite manner which is estamtum behin. . As you are quite aware, Muta marriage does not entail any financial liabilities, isnt it???

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Bismillah: Assalamo Alikum.

So you see Wael. The Quran here permits Muta' through the mutual agreement of dowries. Here is my challenge:

Only another verse from the Quran can abrogate another verse in the Quran, Muta' has been allowed in 4:24 show me a verse where Muta' has been abrogated, forbidden or replaced.

"Prosperous are the believers ... who guard their private parts save from their wives and what their right hands own." (23:14).

According to the Prophet's wife Aisha may Allah be pleased with her: 'Mut'a is forbidden and abrogated in the Quran where God says: "who guard their private parts..." (al-Jami' li Ahkam al-Quran, by al-Qurtubi, v5, p130)

Well, i believe Aisha may Allah be pleased with her.

Salam

Wael.

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Bismillah

as salam alykom Karbala,

Alright let me elaborate and help you understand the interconnectivity of Quran, not that I expect you to consider what I m about to say, but I m doing my job and it is up to u to take it or not. Actually, to further explain, I m really into maintaining this thread to serve as an enlightening tool for others or whoever come to this place even after our death. That is why I m trying to dig as much as possible to try and put as much as fact as we can.

Karbala, as you prbably know Quran is interconnected and texts do explain one another, thus, we cannt simply chop and take parts, then explain it or interpret the way we like to serve certain trends. NO we cannt.

Allah Sat marital and divorce rules in different position in Quran for wisdom that is only known to Allah. I mean the rules were mainly estalished in Surat Baqarah, then explained further in Nisaa and others.

In Surat Baqarah: 236 Allah Say:

لاَّ جُنَاحَ عَلَيْكُمْ إِن طَلَّقْتُمُ النِّسَاء مَا لَمْ تَمَسُّوهُنُّ أَوْ تَفْرِضُواْ لَهُنَّ فَرِيضَةً وَمَتِّعُوهُنَّ عَلَى الْمُوسِعِ قَدَرُهُ وَعَلَى الْمُقْتِرِ قَدْرُهُ مَتَاعًا بِالْمَعْرُوفِ حَقًّا عَلَى الْمُحْسِنِينَ

There is no sin on you, if you divorce women while yet you have not touched (had sexual relation with) them, nor appointed unto them their bridal money. But bestow on them (a suitable gift), the rich according to his means, and the poor according to his means, a gift of reasonable amount is a duty on the doers of good.

وَإِن طَلَّقْتُمُوهُنَّ مِن قَبْلِ أَن تَمَسُّوهُنَّ وَقَدْ فَرَضْتُمْ لَهُنَّ فَرِيضَةً فَنِصْفُ مَا فَرَضْتُمْ إَلاَّ أَن يَعْفُونَ أَوْ يَعْفُوَ الَّذِي بِيَدِهِ عُقْدَةُ النِّكَاحِ وَأَن تَعْفُواْ أَقْرَبُ لِلتَّقْوَى وَلاَ تَنسَوُاْ الْفَضْلَ بَيْنَكُمْ إِنَّ اللّهَ بِمَا تَعْمَلُونَ بَصِيرٌ

"And if you divorce them before you have touched (had a sexual relation with) them, and you have appointed unto them the bridal money, then pay half of that, unless they (the women) agree to forego it, or he (the husband), in whose hands is the marriage tie, agrees to forego and give her full appointed bridal money. And to forego and give (her the full bridal money) is nearer to piety. And do not forget liberality between yourselves. Truly, Allah is All-Seer of what you do."

Those are the two rules governing divorce before marriage consummation: one in case the husband committed himself with a deferred dowry (the second Ayah), then the woman will be in titled to half the amount. The first Ayah explains the case when there is not eferred dowry. In such case the man might give out an amount each according to his given financial capabilities, however, he is not obliged this is out of being a Muhsin. The word used in that Ayah is Mateouhun, meaning give them an amount for Mutaa. In other words, entertain them, comfort their hearts..etc.

The Ayahs further build up more ruling even in cases of husband death saying (quran 2:240):

وَالَّذِينَ يُتَوَفَّوْنَ مِنكُمْ وَيَذَرُونَ أَزْوَاجًا وَصِيَّةً لِّأَزْوَاجِهِم مَّتَاعًا إِلَى الْحَوْلِ غَيْرَ إِخْرَاجٍ فَإِنْ خَرَجْنَ فَلاَ جُنَاحَ عَلَيْكُمْ فِي مَا فَعَلْنَ فِيَ أَنفُسِهِنَّ مِن مَّعْرُوفٍ وَاللّهُ عَزِيزٌ حَكِيمٌ

"And those of you who die and leave behind wives should bequeath for their wives a year's maintenance and residence without turning them out, but if they (wives) leave, there is no sin on you for that which they do of themselves, provided it is honourable (e.g. lawful marriage). And Allah is All-Mighty, All-Wise"

The same word is used here which is Mataan but the sense here is an asset to be used, however, bearing the same sense, to entertain them, cosole their hearts, and provide them an accomodation till they can handle their affairs.

And according to your explain in post 258, you said that in Mutaa there is not financial compensation.

Coming to the particular Ayah you quoted now:

وَالْمُحْصَنَاتُ مِنَ النِّسَاء إِلاَّ مَا مَلَكَتْ أَيْمَانُكُمْ كِتَابَ اللّهِ عَلَيْكُمْ وَأُحِلَّ لَكُم مَّا وَرَاء ذَلِكُمْ أَن تَبْتَغُواْ بِأَمْوَالِكُم مُّحْصِنِينَ غَيْرَ مُسَافِحِينَ فَمَا اسْتَمْتَعْتُم بِهِ مِنْهُنَّ فَآتُوهُنَّ أُجُورَهُنَّ فَرِيضَةً وَلاَ جُنَاحَ عَلَيْكُمْ فِيمَا تَرَاضَيْتُم بِهِ مِن بَعْدِ الْفَرِيضَةِ إِنَّ اللّهَ كَانَ عَلِيمًا حَكِيمًا

"Also (forbidden are) women already married, except those (captives and slaves) whom your right hands possess. Thus has Allah ordained for you. All others are lawful, provided you seek (them in marriage) with bridal money from your property, desiring chastity, not committing illegal sexual intercourse, so with those of whom you have enjoyed sexual relations, give them their bridal money as prescribed; but if after a bridal money is prescribed, you agree mutually (to give more), there is no sin on you. Surely, Allah is Ever All-Knowing, All-Wise."

Here the Ayah stipulates the ruling of financial compensation when the husband and wife had conumated the marriage. The word اسْتَمْتَعْتُم بِهِ مِنْهُنَّ here refers to the sexual contact a husband and wife had during their marital life in order to differentiate and be very precise when setting those rules between cases as above mentioned and this case. And the rest of the Ayah confirms this explaining that thise will be according to what you allocated and committed yourself with.

How can this word be taken out of cotext by Shia scholars to legalise Muta? Can you see the point Karbala?

One question before i move on, I m aware that you dont accept (or not sure if u do or practice), Husayhina rituals including the visit on the 40th day. Do you practice this Zeyarah????

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Bismillah: Assalamo Alikum.

"Prosperous are the believers ... who guard their private parts save from their wives and what their right hands own." (23:14).

According to the Prophet's wife Aisha may Allah be pleased with her: 'Mut'a is forbidden and abrogated in the Quran where God says: "who guard their private parts..." (al-Jami' li Ahkam al-Quran, by al-Qurtubi, v5, p130)

Well, i believe Aisha may Allah be pleased with her.

Salam

Wael.

Wasalam,

23:14 Cannot abrogate 4:24, Aisha overlooked the fact that Surat Nisa is a Medinite Surah while Surat Al-Muminoon is a Meccan Surah. Medinite Surahs as you know came after Meccan Surahs.

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not that I expect you to consider what I m about to say,

Ouch! Muslimah we may not agree on many things, but can we at least respect each others views? I do consider everything you say.

Regarding your analysis of the word Muta' Verses 2:236-237, 2:240 and 4:24.

Karbala, the اسْتَمْتَعْتُم here refers to consumating the marriage.

If I understand you properly you are saying Muta' in 4:24 means the consummation of Marriage and not Muta' marriage. Ill tell you why this is impossible.

In 2:236 and 2:240 Muta' refers to the providing provision or bequeathing gift for the woman. In 4:24 Muta' meaning is different from 2:236 and 2:240. Muslimah you say that here it means consumation of marriage. But the proper term Allah(swt) used to refer to consumation of marriage is تَمَسُّوهُنَّ . Allah(swt) did not use تَمَسُّوهُنَّ in 4:24 hence the verse cannot be referring to consumation of marriage. تَمَسُّوهُنَّ used in 2:236, 2:237 and 33:49 to refer to consumation of marriage.

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Bismillah

Karbala, so do I respect your viewpoint and that is why I continue conversing with you. I didnt mean what you go. Any way.

Well, let me explain to your further, first off, your argument cannt stand because as you yourself explained, Muta does not involve any financial obligations on the husband. Further it might apply even without sexual contact. Thus, building on the word اسْتَمْتَعْتُم بِهِ which establishes a rule of paying a deffered dowry cannt be valid here.

Karbala, Alah's Words are endless. Allah Uses different words to refer to the same meaning specially when it comes to the sexual relation. As Allah Is Hayee (The All Shy). For example, in Quran 2:222

وَيَسْأَلُونَكَ عَنِ الْمَحِيضِ قُلْ هُوَ أَذًى فَاعْتَزِلُواْ النِّسَاء فِي الْمَحِيضِ وَلاَ تَقْرَبُوهُنَّ حَتَّىَ يَطْهُرْنَ فَإِذَا تَطَهَّرْنَ فَأْتُوهُنَّ مِنْ حَيْثُ أَمَرَكُمُ اللّهُ إِنَّ اللّهَ يُحِبُّ التَّوَّابِينَ وَيُحِبُّ الْمُتَطَهِّرِينَ

وَلاَ تَقْرَبُوهُنَّ

فَأْتُوهُنَّ

"They ask you concerning menstruation. Say: that is an Adha (a harmful thing for a husband to have a sexual intercourse with his wife while she is having her menses), therefore keep away from women during menses and go not unto them till they have purified (from menses and have taken a bath). And when they have purified themselves, then go in unto them as Allah has ordained for you (go in unto them in any manner as long as it is in their vagina). Truly, Allah loves those who turn unto Him in repentance and loves those who purify themselves (by taking a bath and cleaning and washing thoroughly their private parts, bodies, for their prayers, etc.)."

نِسَآؤُكُمْ حَرْثٌ لَّكُمْ فَأْتُواْ حَرْثَكُمْ أَنَّى شِئْتُمْ وَقَدِّمُواْ لأَنفُسِكُمْ وَاتَّقُواْ اللّهَ وَاعْلَمُواْ أَنَّكُم مُّلاَقُوهُ وَبَشِّرِ الْمُؤْمِنِينَ

Your wives are a tilth for you, so go to your tilth (have sexual relations with your wives in any manner as long as it is in the vagina and not in the anus), when or how you will, and send (good deeds, or ask Allah to bestow upon you pious offspring) before you for your ownselves. And fear Allah, and know that you are to meet Him (in the Hereafter), and give good tidings to the believers (O Muhammad).

Can you see Karbala, those two Ayah deal with rulings of the sexual relation between a husband and wife including when to abstain, how to approach it, ..etc. But because as I said Allah Is The All shy, and also if sea water was ink to serve the words of Allah, sea water would finish but not the Words of Allah. Thus, Allah Uses different words to refer to the same meaning according to context. Touching and approaching here refers to the sexual relation which is a source of pleasure. Pleasure is Mutaa. Thus, taking your presentation in consideration that Muta marriage does not involve any financial responsibilities, will help you understand the word. Estamtaum behen, meaning married to them and having pleasure with them in marriage. When you divorce them, give them Aujur (deferred dowry).

The other two positions Mata (asset) meaning accomodation and the other establishes also the deffered dowry which is granted to the woman as consolation.

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Well, let me explain to your further, first off, your argument cannt stand because as you yourself explained, Muta does not involve any financial obligations on the husband. Further it might apply even without sexual contact. Thus, building on the word اسْتَمْتَعْتُم بِهِ which establishes a rule of paying a deffered dowry cannt be valid here.

When did I say there are no financial obligations on the husband? The husband is obliged to pay the woman a dowry. I think I have mentioned this before.

Muta' can be contracted without any sexual contact involved, infact in Shi'i fiqh the same applies to Permanent marriage as well. i don't see what this has to do with verse 4:24.

4:24 does not mention divorce at all.

Doesn't Al-hayy mean the ever living? I havent heard of the All-Shy before.

Allahs language in the Quran does vary according to context but it is very precise as well. When talking about the context of consummation of marriage Allah uses the word تَمَسُّوهُنَّ in 2:236, 2:237 and 33:49. I am not aware of any other word used in the Quran to describe the consummation, maybe you can show me?

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Bismillah

Dr. Karbala, I have fever 39 C nothing breaks it Sobhan Allah Alhamdulelah, I m holding on, Insh aAllah this will go away with my sins.

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Dr. Karbala, I have fever 39 C nothing breaks it Sobhan Allah Alhamdulelah, I m holding on, Insh aAllah this will go away with my sins.

I pray you get well. Take plenty of rest and fluids.

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Alhamdulelah fever finally broke. Still on fluids and rest though.

Bismillah

I thought to elaborate on a separate post to make it easier for one who reads Karbala.

Let me Insh a Allah help some more to clear the confusion

Please note that we cannt take Ayahs out of context or outside of the interrelated texture. This whole Surat addresses several issues related to women and in particular marriage starting from what to do with orphan girls when they are still under the custody of a man who might want to use her and marry her to take her money or take advantage of her position to save himself from giving her financial rights. But bear with me, because this will be a bit long.

Let us just get back few Ayahs and see how did this Ayah come into sequence (Quran 4:19-25):

يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُواْ لاَ يَحِلُّ لَكُمْ أَن تَرِثُواْ النِّسَاء كَرْهًا وَلاَ تَعْضُلُوهُنَّ لِتَذْهَبُواْ بِبَعْضِ مَا آتَيْتُمُوهُنَّ إِلاَّ أَن يَأْتِينَ بِفَاحِشَةٍ مُّبَيِّنَةٍ وَعَاشِرُوهُنَّ بِالْمَعْرُوفِ فَإِن كَرِهْتُمُوهُنَّ فَعَسَى أَن تَكْرَهُواْ شَيْئًا وَيَجْعَلَ اللّهُ فِيهِ خَيْرًا كَثِيراً[/size]

O you who believe! You are forbidden to inherit women against their will, and you should not treat them with harshness, that you may take away part of the bridal money you have given them, unless they commit open illegal sexual intercourse. And live with them honourably. If you dislike them, it may be that you dislike a thing and Allah brings through it a great deal of good.

In this Ayah Allah Is warning men against forcing to take the money of women who are widowed, or forcing them to marry a man who is responsible about her seeking to take her money as this situation was recurrent.

وَإِنْ أَرَدتُّمُ اسْتِبْدَالَ زَوْجٍ مَّكَانَ زَوْجٍ وَآتَيْتُمْ إِحْدَاهُنَّ قِنطَارًا فَلاَ تَأْخُذُواْ مِنْهُ شَيْئًا أَتَأْخُذُونَهُ بُهْتَاناً وَإِثْماً مُّبِيناً

But if you intend to replace a wife by another and you have given one of them a great amount as bridal money, take not the least bit of it back; would you take it wrongfully without a right and (with) a manifest sin?

Here is a ruling in terms of taking back the gift a man gave upon marriage in case he divorces the woman.

وَكَيْفَ تَأْخُذُونَهُ وَقَدْ أَفْضَى بَعْضُكُمْ إِلَى بَعْضٍ وَأَخَذْنَ مِنكُم مِّيثَاقًا غَلِيظًا

And how could you take it (back) while you have gone in unto each other, and they have taken from you a firm and strong covenant?

Note that here too Allah Used a totally different word to refer to sexual intercourse which is afda in order to emphasis that those rules are relevant to marriage after consummation. It builds on the previous warning even in a inquisitive form of language to indicate impossibility.

وَلاَ تَنكِحُواْ مَا نَكَحَ آبَاؤُكُم مِّنَ النِّسَاء إِلاَّ مَا قَدْ سَلَفَ إِنَّهُ كَانَ فَاحِشَةً وَمَقْتًا وَسَاء سَبِيلاً

And marry not women whom your fathers married, except what has already passed; indeed it was shameful and most hateful, and an evil way.

Here is what you always bring as argument that Allah Used tankehu. True, but as you have noted Allah Is using multiple forms to refer to the same meaning specially that here Allah is referring to even just concluding a marriage contract without consummation. In other words, Allah Is forbidding for a man to conclude a marriage contract with his step mother.

The following Ayah will clarify what I just said further:

حُرِّمَتْ عَلَيْكُمْ أُمَّهَاتُكُمْ وَبَنَاتُكُمْ وَأَخَوَاتُكُمْ وَعَمَّاتُكُمْ وَخَالاَتُكُمْ وَبَنَاتُ الأَخِ وَبَنَاتُ الأُخْتِ وَأُمَّهَاتُكُمُ اللاَّتِي أَرْضَعْنَكُمْ وَأَخَوَاتُكُم مِّنَ الرَّضَاعَةِ وَأُمَّهَاتُ نِسَآئِكُمْ وَرَبَائِبُكُمُ اللاَّتِي فِي حُجُورِكُم مِّن نِّسَآئِكُمُ اللاَّتِي دَخَلْتُم بِهِنَّ فَإِن لَّمْ تَكُونُواْ دَخَلْتُم بِهِنَّ فَلاَ جُنَاحَ عَلَيْكُمْ وَحَلاَئِلُ أَبْنَائِكُمُ الَّذِينَ مِنْ أَصْلاَبِكُمْ وَأَن تَجْمَعُواْ بَيْنَ الأُخْتَيْنِ إَلاَّ مَا قَدْ سَلَفَ إِنَّ اللّهَ كَانَ غَفُورًا رَّحِيمًا

Forbidden to you (for marriage) are: your mothers, your daughters, your sisters, your father's sisters, your mother's sisters, your brother's daughters, your sister's daughters, your foster mother who gave you suck, your foster milk suckling sisters, your wives' mothers, your step daughters under your guardianship, born of your wives to whom you have gone in - but there is no sin on you if you have not gone in them (to marry their daughters), - the wives of your sons who (spring) from your own loins, and two sisters in wedlock at the same time, except for what has already passed; verily, Allah is Oft Forgiving, Most Merciful.

Note that we are here talking about marriage, this batch of Ayahs is addressing the issue of marriage. Again to refer to consummation of marriage Allah Used dakhltum behin. And in this Ayah Allah Is identifying categories of women with whom a man can not be married. Then Allah Continues in the following Ayah that is why it started with wa (and) it means that married women (muhsanat) can not be married to. Then it says other wise, it is lawful for you to marry other women, using your money, who do not fall under any of the above mentioned categories and it stresses that they must receive their due amount of money (aujurhun).

Before I continue I need to correct something (astaghferullah), seems the fever was approaching. I said that the word estamta`umt behin refers to consummation of marriage. No sorry, this is a wrong understanding, otherwise, how come Allah in Surat Baqarah in the two Ayah I quoted, is indicating that those who are divorced before being touched are eligible to money for estimtaa. The estimtaa here (having pleasure) is even by just engagement, company, time spent. It is as I explained above a form of consolation for the woman.

Here is the issue that is creating controversy. True as you stated that the Ayah in Surat Baqarah with the word mateouhun refers to financial support, but it serves other meanings as well. As in one of them it refers to women who are divorced before marriage consummation and were not promised for a faridah (dowry), they are entitled for a mutaa, money in return for having pleasure with the woman. In other words, being engaged to her, spending time with her. That is why here Allah Says those with whom you had pleasure, any type of pleasure including even time and company. Thus, your explanation confirms even that this word here can never refer to Mutaa marriage, because it is part and parcel of this interrelated texture indicating rulings of marriage one after the other. And as you saw how many synonyms Allah Used to refer to sexual intercourse.

وَالْمُحْصَنَاتُ مِنَ النِّسَاء إِلاَّ مَا مَلَكَتْ أَيْمَانُكُمْ كِتَابَ اللّهِ عَلَيْكُمْ وَأُحِلَّ لَكُم مَّا وَرَاء ذَلِكُمْ أَن تَبْتَغُواْ بِأَمْوَالِكُم مُّحْصِنِينَ غَيْرَ مُسَافِحِينَ فَمَا اسْتَمْتَعْتُم بِهِ مِنْهُنَّ فَآتُوهُنَّ أُجُورَهُنَّ فَرِيضَةً وَلاَ جُنَاحَ عَلَيْكُمْ فِيمَا تَرَاضَيْتُم بِهِ مِن بَعْدِ الْفَرِيضَةِ إِنَّ اللّهَ كَانَ عَلِيمًا حَكِيمًا

Also (forbidden are) women already married, except those (captives and slaves) whom your right hands possess. Thus has Allah ordained for you. All others are lawful, provided you seek (them in marriage) with bridal money from your property, desiring chastity, not committing illegal sexual intercourse, so with those of whom you have enjoyed sexual relations, give them their bridal money as prescribed; but if after a bridal money is prescribed, you agree mutually (to give more), there is no sin on you. Surely, Allah is Ever All-Knowing, All-Wise.

As I indicated above, in continuation to which women are unmarriageable and which are marriageable. It is only harmonious to put a general rule then of giving them their due financial rights in return for what a man obtained with them of pleasure. Not legalizing Muta marriage. In case Allah Who is Precise as you just stated and as we all know Willed to legalize Muta marriage, and since Muta marriage has some different rulings from conventional marriage, Allah Would have actually Put this clearly in a separate text in order to clearly detail those rules specially that this type of marriage is termed, contract is automatically dissolved,..etc. But to put it is this context that is harmonious with the rest of the preceding and succeeding Ayahs, it is then part and parcel of the full context of marriage setting the rulings. It is totally illogical to say that with only a word, just one word, without any details, specifications, rulings, descriptions, that Allah Legalizes an issue. Because reading it in this context makes it as I said part of the full batch of marital and divorce rulings including inheritance and as you explained, in case of Muta the couple are not entitled for inheritance of one another, this should have been clearly prescribed, don’t you think so? And sorry, I got confused, you said dowry and everything is applied, but she is not entitled for subsistence, this should have been also mentioned. Just placing one word in the middle that builds on other Ayahs does not logically serve the meaning to legalize a totally different type of marriage that involves different fiqh.

The following Ayah will confirm the explanation that by the Support of Allah I introduced here:

وَمَن لَّمْ يَسْتَطِعْ مِنكُمْ طَوْلاً أَن يَنكِحَ الْمُحْصَنَاتِ الْمُؤْمِنَاتِ فَمِن مِّا مَلَكَتْ أَيْمَانُكُم مِّن فَتَيَاتِكُمُ الْمُؤْمِنَاتِ وَاللّهُ أَعْلَمُ بِإِيمَانِكُمْ بَعْضُكُم مِّن بَعْضٍ فَانكِحُوهُنَّ بِإِذْنِ أَهْلِهِنَّ وَآتُوهُنَّ أُجُورَهُنَّ بِالْمَعْرُوفِ مُحْصَنَاتٍ غَيْرَ مُسَافِحَاتٍ وَلاَ مُتَّخِذَاتِ أَخْدَانٍ فَإِذَا أُحْصِنَّ فَإِنْ أَتَيْنَ بِفَاحِشَةٍ فَعَلَيْهِنَّ نِصْفُ مَا عَلَى الْمُحْصَنَاتِ مِنَ الْعَذَابِ ذَلِكَ لِمَنْ خَشِيَ الْعَنَتَ مِنْكُمْ وَأَن تَصْبِرُواْ خَيْرٌ لَّكُمْ وَاللّهُ غَفُورٌ رَّحِيمٌ

And whoever of you have not the means wherewith to wed free, believing women, they may wed believing girls from among those (captives and slaves) whom your right hands possess, and Allah has full knowledge about your Faith, you are one from another. Wed them with the permission of their own folk (guardians or masters) and give them their bridal money according to what is reasonable; they (the above said captive and slave-girls) should be chaste, not adulterous, nor taking boy-friends. And after they have been taken in wedlock, if they commit illegal sexual intercourse, their punishment is half that for free (unmarried) women. This is for him among you who is afraid of being harmed in his religion or in his body; but it is better for you that you practise self restraint, and Allah is Oft Forgiving, Most Merciful.

In this Ayah, Allah Is Giving men who cannt afford marrying Muhsanat believing women (free) an alternative of marrying their right hand possession with the permission of their parents. If the preceding Ayah as you argued was with one word legalizing Muta, Allah Wouldn’t Have continued talking about an alternative to those who cannt afford marriage giving them other options. Wallahu a`lam

Wallahu a`lam

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Bismillah

Regarding Al Hayeyy it is different from Al Hay.

Al Hay is All Living. Hayeyy is All Shy. When we made dua we Say that O Allah You Are Hayeyyun Kareem Tastahy an Tarud Al Abd sifr al Yadain (empty handed).

O Allah You Are All Shy and Gracious that You Are Shy to return the devotee empty handed.

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as salam alykom all

As I indicated above, that the objective of this thread is not merely to discuss with one person, but rather to compile as much relevant info as possible to help those who are in a quest to find proper answers, not only proper, but Insh a Allah well searched with the support of Allah.

As the previous post explained how Mutaa is not all what the Shia created thru linguist and primarily Quran sources.

Here I like to address an essential point in establishing the Shia belief. They lay much emphais on the Ahul Bayt issue and who are they.

According to Karbala in post # 145, he explained to me how they believe that Fatima may Allah be pleased with her was the only daughter of the Messenger salla Allah a`lyhee wa sallam. Well, here is what I found.

Sobhan Allah after one year, I was reading Quran and stopped at an Ayah that solves this issue. However, let me first clarify an important point, from my observation, Shia scholars designed the beliefs that are part and parcel of Shia sect in a way that serves a totally political purpose. In some ahadeeth, they interpreted them in a way just to discredit Aaesh and in turn of course discredit Abu Bakr making his Khilafa illegitimate. Any way, let me focus on this point, when Karbala explained in post #145, that according to Shia belief, the Messenger salla Allah a`lyhee wa sallam had only Fatima as a daughter and Ruqayyah, Umm Kulthoom and Zaynab are either Khajia's daughters from a previous marriage or her sister's. In all cases, such a status would have them carry an adjective of Rabaeb (wife's daughters whom a husband is raising) as in Quran 4:23:

"Forbidden to you (for marriage) are: your mothers, your daughters, your sisters, your father's sisters, your mother's sisters, your brother's daughters, your sister's daughters, your foster mother who gave you suck, your foster milk suckling sisters, your wives' mothers, your step daughters under your guardianship, born of your wives to whom you have gone in - but there is no sin on you if you have not gone in them (to marry their daughters), - the wives of your sons who (spring) from your own loins, and two sisters in wedlock at the same time, except for what has already passed; verily, Allah is Oft Forgiving, Most Merciful."

The underlined part is what is called in Arabic Rabaeb and the best translation to the succeeding sentence is born of your wives with whom you consummated the marriage (had a sexual intercourse). Now as Allah Is really precise, accurate and certainly All Knowing, Allah Knew that there will be a sect called Shia of whom scholars would invent this myth of the prophet's daughters just to serve the purpose of restricting Ahl Bayt to Fatima, Ali, Hassan and Hussain may Allah be pleased with all of them. In an effort to reply to Karbala, I was taking the hard method of research and tried to check the birth date of each of them. While Allah Made it very easy for me and others as it is clearly stated in Quran, and I only realized it last week Sobhan Allah, although I read it many many times. But this is the glory of Quran, each time you read, you discover new things. We always have to unearth Quran. To stay on topic, reading the same Surat.of Al Ahzab, Allah Say:

" O Prophet! Tell your wives and your daughters and the women of the believers to draw their cloaks (veils) all over their bodies (i.e.screen themselves completely except the eyes or one eye to see the way). That will be better, that they should be known (as free respectable women) so as not to be annoyed. And Allah is Ever Oft¬Forgiving, Most Merciful." (Quran 33:59).

As clearly stated, Allah specifically commanded the Messenger salla Allah a`lyhee wa sallam to instruct his wives, and daughters using plural form, this is not haphazard of course. In case what the Shia scholars assumed, that he only had Fatima and others were his wife's daughters, Allah would Say your daughter and Rabaebuka (step daughters) in order to make this clear. However, stating wives and daughters leaves no doubt that all of them were his daughters and not just Fatima. But again for creating a proper foundation to their belief, Shia scholars ignored this clear Ayah and interpreted Quran in a manner that serves their aim.

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Bismillah

To continue filling the gaps here, as for the infamous hadeethul kisaa which forms a no less essential foundation of the Shia belief in identifying Ahul Bayt.and in turn who is Ma`soum. In the hadeeth, Umm Salama attempted to enter into the Kisaa, but the Messenger salla Allah a`lyhee wa sallam stopped her saying you are on Khair (you are already in a good status). At the time I was discussing this with Karbala, I stopped to avoid making preference between people with whom we can not even compare. From post # 122 to like 130, hadeethu l kisaa is deeply discussed in an effort from Karbala to prove how the wives of the Messenger salla alyhee wa sallam and may Allah be pleased with all of them are execluded from Ayah 33:33 although as explained, it falls well within a set of Ayahs addressing them. In fact, the response falls within the hadeeth itself. By stopping Umm Salama from coming under the kisaa with Fatima, Ali, Hassan and Hussain may Allah be pleased with them and the Messenger salla Allah a`lyhee wa sallam telling her you are on good, it confirms that she is already covered by this merit by virtue of the Ayah and thus, does not need to join them now, as at this point the Messenger salla Allah a`lyhee wa sallam aimed to include Fatima and her family into this Divine promise of purification and not otherwise. In other words, the Ayah grants the wives Divine purification and the Messenger salla Allah a`lyhee wa sallam desired the same for Fatima and her family may Allah be pleased with them all, thus, he includes them in his household under the kisaa. But Sobhan Allah, Shia scholars go against all reasoning and twist facts just to establish a different fact.

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as salam alykom Karbala,

Well I still have some points to disucuss, believe it or not, just wanted to give u a break.

Karbala, you stated on an earlier post that you believe that Quran was revealed on its present form and that no distortion has been made upon our holy book, no omission or additions. No tahreef, am I not correct?

I have an important question, under such conditions, what is your position of the alleged Surah entitled Al Welyaha that stands as an argument for granting Ali may Allah be pleased with him and (Karramallhu wajhu=may Allah Honor his face) rank of Walayah?

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as salam alykom

Just to continue enlighting people on some major distortions in the Shiaa belief, earlier on this same thread, Karbala denied that people have to go for Haj to Najaf or Karbala and he denied learning that they hold, according to Shiaa scholars, a higher position than Kaaba. Well, please review this link:

http://www.ziaraat.org/articles/iraq-guide.php

It highlights the status of Najaf calling those who visit as performing piligrimage

I also have a video of a lecture of Sheikh Shirazi but it is in Arabic, when he openly stated that Karbala shall turn into the better part of Jannah even better than Kabaa.

I have a lot to say, and Insh a Allah Karbala come back may be he can explain!!!!

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Bismillah

I consider this thread one of the important thread on this board, and regardless of someone making a reply or not, In sh a Allah, as much as possible I will continue filling up here, as this should turn into an an attempt of accumulating proper knowledge to serve whoever needs to understand, while shall continue to generate good deeds for all Muslims who took part on this thread even after their death.

One of the main ground Shia use in verifying their belief, is hadeethu l kissa, as brother Karbala actually confirmed it in one of the earlier posts. This hadeeth stands as cornerstone for the position they lend Fatima, Ali (Karramallahu wajhu: may Allah Honour his face), Hassan and Hussain may Allah be pleased with all of them. They use the hadeeth for arguing that only those four beloved people are aalu bayt, no one else, and they are fallible..etc.

Here is the hadeeth:

'A'isha reported that Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) went out one norning wearing a striped cloak of the black camel's hair that there came Hasan b. 'Ali. He wrapped him under it, then came Husain and he wrapped him under it along with the other one (Hasan). Then came Fatima and he took her under it, then came 'Ali and he also took him under it and then said: {Allah only desires to take away any uncleanliness from you, O people of the household, and purify you (thorough purifying)} (reported by Muslim)

How can they resolve then that they discredit our beloved mother Ummel Moemneen Aesha, they actually do not take hadeeth narrated by her. But they take this one?? do they pick and choose??? not only take it, it serves as an essential argument, foundation..etc for an important component of their belief.

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