Fatima84

The Fetus Rights in Islam

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The Fetus Rights in Islam

By Dr. Nazmy Khalil Abou El Atta

Translated by Marwa Hassan

Revised By Magdy Abd Al-Shafy

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Calls for human rights resound in the whole world with a serious and false accusation that Islam comes to violate such rights. In a matter of fact, this is entirely repudiated by Islam and Muslims as well. Accordingly, we believe that it is our duty, as Muslims, to defend ourselves and our Islam by illustrating few established facts in our true religion to show how Islam preserve rights, whether these rights relating to living organisms or non-living things as Islam consider both divine . We will illustrate this by means of evidence and we will start by figuring out what rights Islam provided for the fetus.

1- The right of having known and contracted lineage:

One of the simplest fetus rights is to have one known lineage. Islam put some regulations and restrictions to the sexual relationships and bound it to marriage. Further, marriage is legislated by Islam and it was stated as the only way for people to procreate and have children

God says: in this concern what means “your wives are as a tilth unto you" , that is to say He made the womb like a soil where the sperm is the seed that a husband cultivates.

To have a true marriage contract, witnesses are provided. That is to say when two Muslim Couple is getting married, it is necessary for the other Muslims to witness such marriage contract and thus protecting the rights of the fetus to have two known and married parents.

To announce marriage, is another requirement for a true marriage contract as by this act Islam differentiates between illegitimate sexual relationships and marriage. Therefore the act of announcement means letting the majority to learn that those two people bound by the sacred bond of marriage.

Islam prescribed a period of waiting for the wife, Iddat, in order to make sure that her womb is free and she is not pregnant of her ex-husband. Accordingly, this protects the fetus rights to know who his father is and save any confusion in this regard.

Islam absolutely banned the believers to perform the act of adultery or fornication as God dictates in Sura El Nour ( Nour chapter in the Holy Quran)

"Let no man guilty of adultery or fornication marry any but a woman similarly guilty, or an unbeliever: nor let any but such a man or an unbeliever marry such a woman: to the believers such a thing is forbidden. " (Sura El Nure- verse 3)

Otherwise, the punishment of those who do not conform to the dictations of God and Islam should be punished in public in order to let the other Muslims witness that as God says "and let a pretty of the believers witness their punishment" ( Sura El Nure – Verse 2 ) in order to be deterrent .

Accordingly, Islam comes to protect the fetus right to have a known linage and origin. However, this right is not preserved in those communities which allow different forms of unregulated behaviors as far as the relationship between man and woman is concerned, such as adultery, deceit, sex offences and having babies without the bond of marriage, in other words, lovechildren.

2- the right to have a healthy and chaste womb environment

Womb is the first environment that fetus touches and this is where it stays to grow. It is figured more likely as a soil where the sperm is cultivated. Islam has granted this soil some sort of sanctity as it bounds the sexual relationship to marriage where only the husband can sow the seed in order to reap the harvest. Islam banned sex offences for a higher and virtuous reason; that is to keep such soil healthy and chaste rather than exhausted or injured...

When diseases occur due to sex offences the first organ to be affected is the womb of the woman. This is why Islam banned adultery and fornications as through improper sexual relationships venereal diseases easily transmit. Islam has also banned alcoholic drinks, drugs and eating spoiled food as His Almighty says "Eat of the good things we have provided for you"

Islam has also banned eating dead bodies of animals or birds, eating swine's meat (pork) or drinking blood. Further, ill-gotten food is strictly forbidden. Avoiding all these things ensure a healthy womb environment

Islam dictated some regulations and restrictions concerning the relationship between man and woman. Further, it forbids Muslim women to interact with strange men for women's sake and to keep them away from sick and evil people. Thus that would provide protection for fetus and secure chaste womb.

3- The right to have a strong genetic origin

from the scientific point of view; fetus is formed as a result of integration in the hereditary substance, in other words chromosomes, of both man and woman, where these chromosomes carry the genetic characteristics of the child. In a matter of fact, marriage which is exclusive to the relatives of one's family is not favorable; this is according to the prophetic tradition, Muhammad (PBUH), " marrying a non-relative is favored than marrying a relative one"…narrated by El Bukhary. The Hadeeth advises people not to get married to a relative spouse as this results in deformed kids. Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) advises those who wishes to get married, to choose their wives carefully in order to make sure that she free form any deformity, and thus he assures that he will be having healthy and deformity free kids.

4- The right to have a true faith

Marriage is the most intimate relationship that combines spiritual harmony with physical link. This is a vital matter that affects both parties and influences their potentiality of choice to a great extent. The main aim of both parties is to seek for the right and good partner rather than an unbeliever! God says " do not marry unbelieving women (idolaters) until they believe. A slave woman who believes is better than an unbelieving woman, even though she allures you"( Sura Bakara – verse 221)

When God dictates that Muslims are to be married to believers and never to unbelievers, was to ensure a true faith and powerful religion to the coming children and not to be subjected to the whims of an unbelieving father or mother.

5- The right to get into heaven

Islam maintains the right of fetus to get into heaven and to stay away from Hell as God says " O you who believe! Save yourselves and your families from fire" . A believing father raises his children on virtues and the dictations of Islam which works as a firewall against tracing the devil's track. Thus Islam ensures religious family for fetus and a believing social background.

6- The right of equality with other fetuses

Islam stipulated that it is only He, God ,the Almighty, Who grants people baby boys or girls. So, it is up to God only to determine the fetus sex, whether it is a boy or a girl. In other words, fetus is helpless when the matter of sex is concerned and this makes all fetuses equal, girls and boys.

7- The right to have a normal social life

Islam prescribed that both parties, the husband and the wife, shall be socially equivalent as this ensures a normal and social environment for the coming children, where no way that one of the parents act superciliously. As a matte of fact, this lessens the potentiality of social discord and family disunity as it enhances the social life of families and the psychological needs.

8- The right to maintain fetus life

The law of Islam has provided the right of fetus to live and prohibited any attempt of killing him and further abortion is legislated in few established situations which are determined by physicians, Islam legists together with sociologists. In Islam, violators are punished equally, whether it is the father, the mother, or some one else... as the Islamic law dictates that the violator is to be deprived from inheritance in case of getting rid of fetus to capture his share in the inheritance. Accordingly, the right of fetus to live is secured by Islam.

Islam legists agreed unanimously on prohibiting abortion and they resorted to the fact that God granted life to such lifeless thing and only He who has the power to take it back. Physicians and embryologists agreed that fetus is a living organism even when it is still a sperm and this is a convincing reason, from the scientific point of view, for not depriving such a helpless creature form the divine right of life.

9- The right to enjoy health life within womb

In Islam, the responsibility of fetus is resorted to parents as it is to be considered one of their duties, in other words subjects, in life " You are all guardians and each one of you is responsible for his own subjects", or that is to say " good shepherd is responsible for his own sheep" . Islam stipulated that the husband shall spend on his pregnant wife and socially protect her. This provides the right of fetus to enjoy secure, and serenity and good food " Let the women live (in Iddate) in the same style as ye live, according to your means: annoy them not, so as to restrict them. And if they carry (life in their wombs), then spend (your substance on them until they deliver their burden…" (Sura Talak – verse 6)

Accordingly, in Islam the husband is entitled to pay all the expenses of his pregnant wife after divorce, including food, housing, clothing, social protection, psychological support and medicines. This protects fetus against malnutrition and psychological illness. Islam protected women as well in a way that it allowed them to work outdoors only under admissible necessity.

10- Maintaining fetus good and benefit

For fetus sake, Islamic law gives the permission to the pregnant mother to eat in Ramadan and not to fast. (Prophet Muhammad, PBUH, exempted pregnant or suckling mothers from fasting) narrated by Termezi in the Fasting section.

11- Temporary hold of penalties for the pregnant

Islamic Law stipulated the delay of executing penalties on the pregnant adulterer till delivery, as what was dictated by Prophet Muhammad, PBUH, to a pregnant adulterer in an incident (you may go till your childbirth). Thus Islam comes to absolve fetus from the guilt of his mother.

12- Maintaining fetus's financial rights

Islam preserves the right of fetus in inheritance in case if it is born live. Islam legists stated that fetus is to be counted within the total of inheritors and his share should be preserved till childbirth. In case if it is born live, his assigned share should be separated. In Islam, patrimony is divided on the basis of holding back the major part for the sake of such fetus, and further the legacy for the fetus is considered true and correct.

13-Honorable Islamic precedence

What we have already mentioned is a small number of rights out of the large number of rights for the fetus in Islam which wad not introduced to the modern civilization until 1959, when the committee of child's rights – which is affiliated to the General Society of the United Nations – stated that both mother and baby shall get the utmost care and protection especially before delivery. In 1966 the United Nations approved on providing special care for pregnant women before and after delivery as well and granting them paid vacations.

Revised By Magdy Abd Al-Shafy

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Peace be with you all!

Thanks for posting that article, Fatima - it was quite interesting.

I'm very pro-life! I lose sleep over the thought of abortion - it breaks my heart!

I'm a little confused. As far as I know, abortion is completely forbidden in only 4 places - Chile, El Salvador, Malta & Vatican City. According to my extensive research, Islamic countries make exceptions to the rule. Why is that? Under what circumstances should the life of a baby (foetus) be compromised?

Also, what are the reasons for Islam allowing divorce?

One more thing... what is Islam's position regarding contraception, IVF & cloning?

Thank you so much! If you ever have questions relating to Catholicism, I'm more than happy to answer them :)

Take care!

Faith Hope Charity... Openness Acceptance Equality

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Bismillah

salam Faith Hope Charity

Let us try and address your multi part question, as far as abortion is concerned.

In regard to Islamic Shari`a (Islamic law) which not every so called Muslim country applies, when the mother's life is threatened due to the pregnancy, a Muslim credible doctor may advice the mother with abortion. The ruling is also divided according to the age of the embryo/foetus.

Because in Islam there is nothing to do with the original sin and that the mother is baptised in opposition to the foetus who is not.

Quickly, cloning in Islam is forbidden, conctraception, here is a good thread:

http://islamww.com/bb/index.php?showtopic=3714&hl= :) enjoy

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"Because in Islam there is nothing to do with the original sin and that the mother is baptised in opposition to the foetus who is not."

Muslimah,

The life of the unbaptized baby is of equal value to the life of the baptized mother. The Church does not negotiate on this matter. Abortion is strictly banned & never acceptable for Catholics (& Christians in general, I hope).

"Islam legists agreed unanimously on prohibiting abortion and they resorted to the fact that God granted life to such lifeless thing and only He who has the power to take it back. Physicians and embryologists agreed that fetus is a living organism even when it is still a sperm and this is a convincing reason, from the scientific point of view, for not depriving such a helpless creature form the divine right of life."

If this is the case, then why does Islam forsake the baby's life in order that the mother survive?

I come from the school of thought that both the mother & the baby inside her womb are human persons & to deliberately abort the "foetus" is never justifiable.

Please help me understand.

I'll check out the link re: contraception/cloning as soon as I have the chance & I would also like to discuss Islam's stance on Original Sin down the track. Sometimes I think the 3 monotheistic faiths have a great deal in common, other times it seems that we're worlds apart :conf06:

Thank you kindly :)

Faith Hope Charity... Openness Acceptance Equality

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Bismillah:

Abortion is strictly banned & never acceptable for Catholics (& Christians in general, I hope).

You mean Abortion "banned from the Bible"?

i remember, King Solomon makes the point that much of life is useless in Ecclesiastes. Over and over he writes that if life is good then we should be thankful. But when life is not good, Solomon makes some interesting statements:

Ecclesiastes 6:3-5

6:3 If a man fathers a hundred {children} and lives many years, however many they be, but his soul is not satisfied with good things and he does not even have a {proper} burial, {then} I say, "Better the miscarriage than he,

6:4 for it comes in futility and goes into obscurity; and its name is covered in obscurity.

6:5 "It never sees the sun and it never knows {anything;} it is better off than he.

Solomon makes the point that it is sometimes better to end a pregnancy prematurely than to allow it to continue into a miserable life. this concept was made even clearer in some other verses which i might quote later insha'Allah.

Salam

Wael.

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Wel Mel..

I love it when you quote the Bible.

Eschatology isn't plucking something out which is a poetic verse like from the book of Ecclesiastes and applying it to whichever point you are trying to prove.

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Bismillah:

Eschatology isn't plucking something out which is a poetic verse like from the book of Ecclesiastes and applying it to whichever point you are trying to prove.

first of all, i also quoted the Book of Deut which is according to you was written by Moses Pbuh... Anyway------>

Weren’t those ‘poetic' verses “inspired” by God according to Christians? Are you saying that those poems were inspired by God Almighty to mean nothing?

Doesn’t the Bible say that:

"All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness."2 Timothy 3:16

THE BRITISH AND FOREIGN BIBLE SOCIETY has produced the closest translation of the original Greek which deserves to be reproduced here:

"EVERY INSPIRED SCRIPTURE HAS ITS USE FOR TEACHING THE TRUTH AND REFUTING ERROR, OR FOR REFORMATION OF MANNERS AND DISCIPLINE IN RIGHT LIVING." (2 Timothy 3:16)

The Roman Catholics in their "Douay" Version, are also more faithful to the text than the Protestants in their Authorised Version AV. They say:

"ALL SCRIPTURE, INSPIRED OF GOD, IS PROFITABLE TO TEACH, TO REPROVE, TO CORRECT . . ." ETC…

Now, do the words “ALL” and “EVERY” in your language mean something else? or maybe Ecclesiastes is not belongs to the Scriptures!! Of course not. All and every means All and every, Ecclesiastes according to Christians is belongs to their scriptures. and so I have full right to use those poetic verses to prove my point since the same Bible tells us that ALL SCRIPTURES INCLUDING THOSE POETIC VERSES MUST SERVE ONE OF FOUR PURPOSES:

1. It must either teach us DOCTRINE;

2. REPROVE us for our error;

3. Offer us CORRECTION;

4. Guide us into RIGHTEOUSNESS.

Now let me ask you, under which category will you place the verses which I have quoted earlier?

1. DOCTRINE?

2. REPROOF?

3. CORRECTION? or

4. INSTRUCTION INTO RIGHTEOUSNESS

Salam

Wael.

Edited by wel_mel_2

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You mean Abortion "banned from the Bible"?

MOST DEFINITELY! NO IF's &'s OR BUT's!!!

"Better the miscarriage than he,

Definition of "miscarriage" - the natural loss of a baby from the womb.

Wael, the key words are " natural loss". A miscarriage is very different from an abortion. When a woman misscarries, she does not deliberately end the life of her child - it's an effect of nature & out of her control. The Church teaches that every soul enters the afterlife, including the aborted & miscarried, because from the moment of their conception, they are human beings!

Solomon makes the point that it is sometimes better to end a pregnancy prematurely than to allow it to continue into a miserable life. this concept was made even clearer in some other verses which i might quote later insha'Allah.

The correct translation of that verse contains the term "untimely birth". Point is, the baby is still born... just not into this world which is full of evil & where they might fall into sin & loose the gift of grace!

I'm happy to provide explanations for other verses too :)

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Bismillah

salam all

Just a quick admin note, the thread got really hijacked, thus, taking in consideration other members' interests I will split the thread Insh a Allah to allow a more dicussion on divorce in Islam.

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Bismillah:

Definition of "miscarriage" - the natural loss of a baby from the womb.

Wael, the key words are " natural loss". A miscarriage is very different from an abortion. When a woman misscarries, she does not deliberately end the life of her child - it's an effect of nature & out of her control. The Church teaches that every soul enters the afterlife, including the aborted & miscarried, because from the moment of their conception, they are human beings!

The correct translation of that verse contains the term "untimely birth". Point is, the baby is still born... just not into this world which is full of evil & where they might fall into sin & loose the gift of grace!

Thanks for clarification… and so what Islam said about abortion?

Sheikh Yusuf Al-Qaradawi, states that:

“While Islam permits preventing pregnancy for valid reasons, it does not allow doing violence to it once it occurs.

Muslim jurists have agreed unanimously that after the fetus is completely formed and has been given a soul, abortion is haram. It is also a crime, the commission of which is prohibited to the Muslim because it constitutes an offense against a complete, living human being. Jurists insist that the payment of blood money (diya) becomes incumbent if the baby is aborted alive and then died, while a fine of lesser amount is to be paid if it is aborted dead.

However, there is one exceptional situation. If, say the jurists, after the baby is completely formed, it is reliably shown that the continuation of the pregnancy would necessarily result in the death of the mother, then, in accordance with the general principle of the Shari`ah, that of choosing the lesser of two evils, abortion must be performed. The reason for this is that the mother is the origin of the fetus; moreover, her life is well-established, with duties and responsibilities, and she is also a pillar of the family. It would not be possible to sacrifice her life for the life of a fetus which has not yet acquired a personality and which has no responsibilities or obligations to fulfill.

Imam al-Ghazzali makes a clear distinction between contraception and abortion, saying that contraception is not like abortion. Abortion is a crime against an existing being. It follows from this that there are stages of existence. The first stages of existence are the settling of the semen in the womb and its mixing with the secretions of the woman. Then come the next gestational stage. Disturbing the pregnancy at this stage is a crime. When it develops further and becomes a lump, aborting it is a greater crime. When it acquires a soul and its creation is completed, the crime becomes more grievous. The crime reaches a maximum seriousness when it is committed after it (the fetus) is separated (from the mother) alive.”

Source: ISLAM ONLINE.net

You may also read Abortion: Forbidden in All Stages??

hope this helps insha'Allah.

Salam

Wael.

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Hi Wael,

Thanks for everything!

I agree with most of Sheikh Yusuf Al-Qaradawi's statement :) Truthfully, I have strong reservations about artificial contraception & any form abortion. I will not budge!

You will be happy to know that I would prefer Muslim women populate the world with more Muslims rather than prevent conception from taking place or seeking abortion at any stage :)

I urge you to talk any woman you know out of having an abortion, under all circumstances (Yes! Including rape - which is a very rare case - less than 1% of abortions performed result from rape! As hard as it is, we need to acknowledge the baby's innocence as well as the miraculous gift of pro-creation).

May Allah open His arms to all the souls that have exited their mother's womb in such an awful way.

God bless.

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Hi Wael,

Thanks for everything!

I agree with most of Sheikh Yusuf Al-Qaradawi's statement :) Truthfully, I have strong reservations about artificial contraception & any form abortion. I will not budge!

The attempt by such zealots to impose their will on others as they threaten women into becoming involuntary incubators is a testament to the weakness of the 'moral' position they would impose on others. Were it valid, persuasion would eliminate their lust for governmental coercion.

You will be happy to know that I would prefer Muslim women populate the world with more Muslims rather than prevent conception from taking place or seeking abortion at any stage :)

Well then you’re in luck. The fact is, Muslim women are populating the world with more Muslims. However, I would proffer the notion that in a world of dwindling resources that is clearly not a net positive for humanity.

Look, let’s be honest, to propagate the realities that so define the Muslim world: violence, hatred, poverty, un-treated disease, ignorance, early death, and of course, leadership toward these goals will do nothing to further humanity. France has a booming (literally), Arab/Muslim population that suffers from revulsion of democratic ideals and principles, is wholly incapable of competing in a relevant, technological world, who blames the West for their inability to prosper and in fact, shuts itself off from its host culture and society while screaming out “Racism”.

France is dying (and her cities are being burned to the ground), while being dragged into the abyss. Hooray for Muslims.

I urge you to talk any woman you know out of having an abortion, under all circumstances (Yes! Including rape - which is a very rare case - less than 1% of abortions performed result from rape! As hard as it is, we need to acknowledge the baby's innocence as well as the miraculous gift of pro-creation).

May Allah open His arms to all the souls that have exited their mother's womb in such an awful way.

God bless.

The extremist nutters on one end of the spectrum mewl that a single fertilized cell is a person and advocate that the State seize control of the womb at that point. On the other end, there are those would have it that personhood is not achieved until birth and the State should have no dominion until then. The vast majority of rational Americans recognize that personhood evolves during gestation as brain waves are first evidenced and independent viability achieved. Thus, we in the U.S. have had the protections of Rowe vs Wade which is a reasonable compromise.

The fact that there cannot be consensus does not dictate that we mindlessly leap to an absolutist proscription. As with most contested matters of adjudication, we are dealing with conflicting recognized rights: a woman to control her womb, a fetus to develop into an individual. Rowe vs Wade has delineated the specifics of such a compromise, recognizing as a superior matter of privacy the right of a woman to control a pregnancy before that zygote/embryo/fetus has become a viable entity, and granting that fetus a protected status once its development has reached a definitive stage. There is always a nebulous area in between that can be contested, but to legislate either one extremist position or the other is not an equitable approach.

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Ruggedtouch, considering this is an Islamic forum, I'm going to be mindful of others & not get into a discussion/argument with you over abortion, considering neither one of us is a Muslim. I'll reply only this once so you don't think I'm ignoring your comments. Please feel free to send me a private message :)

The attempt by such zealots to impose their will on others as they threaten women into becoming involuntary incubators is a testament to the weakness of the 'moral' position they would impose on others.

If you refuse to believe that a child is a blessing from God, then at least acknowledge that they are nature's gift. How you can think that a baby is a burden to its mother? It's simply beyond me!

I'll even speak in a language you'll appreciate... No other animal or creature on earth besides the human being harms its unborn child. You'd think the more we evolve, the smarter we'd get! As far as I'm aware, science has even backed up the fact that from the moment of conception a new life is formed.

Look, let’s be honest, to propagate the realities that so define the Muslim world: violence, hatred, poverty, un-treated disease, ignorance, early death, and of course, leadership toward these goals will do nothing to further humanity.

Mate, those who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones!

Thus, we in the U.S. have had the protections of Rowe vs Wade which is a reasonable compromise.

Between Wade & Rowe, God & reason are nowhere to be found :(

recognizing as a superior matter of privacy the right of a woman to control a pregnancy before that zygote/embryo/fetus has become a viable entity

Call a spade a spade! It's a baby for crying out loud!

Killing the innocent baby to save the innocent mother = All life is equal! We should never try to obtain good by committing evil. The end doesn't justify the means.

I'm sure you're tired of listening to me babble on :rant: This topic has inspired me to upload my very first (amateur) video on YouTube! A picture is worth a thousand words!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lH8VcT5Wg-s

*WARNING* Disturbing Images :o

Edited by Faith Hope Charity

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Hi & peace to you all!

Here are some snippets from my friend's post on abortion...

Im not 486- some thoughts.

If the Jesus story happened in this day and age, i wonder if the saviour would have made it out of the womb alive....Statisitics show that in 2003,that a whopping 84,000 women in this country had abortions... after looking at those stats the odds dont look so good.

I think that the Jesus story is a poingant reminder of how important our life choices can be and how their ramifications reach far beyond the individual. We do ourselves a great disservice if we think that terminations are for the common good...

The strength and bravery of a woman in a heavily patricarchal society, in world that frowned upon pregnancy out of wedlock to the point of occasioning death on the mother shows us that, anything is possible if we have conviction and compassion. We are fortunate enough to live in a society where support is available, we have a voice, we can make things work in our favour despite the dreary forecast.

That one child saved, Jesus, has had a huge impact on the entire world. His influnece has been so profound and far reaching... so i think imagine among those 84,000 souls lost in 2003, we would have killed a possible Mozart or a hypothetical Mandela or a blessed Buddha... think of how many gifted souls we are depriving the world of.

I wonder what it is that makes them (women/ couples) think they cannot have a child or give birth, they must be hugely profound to warrant the consideration of a termination. The idea that "it just isnt the right time for me/us right now" is not enough in my mind. I know i sound overly self righteous and naive and i tend to preach a fair bit without supporting data or any real life expirience- but as a poet, and i call myself that with much reluctance (due to lack of real talent!), i say to hell with all that. I choose to support my arguement with a zeal for life, in a society "growing" through destruction, I choose to challenge the populus.

I want to cry out for all the lives lost. Think about the public pouring of sympathy to the shores of Indonesia when the Tsunami hit and upwards of 100,000 people were killed... Isnt this the same in some small way or worse because its self inflicted and not anatural disaster? Cant anyone see what a waste of human life Abortion is? Am i mad?

Its funny we abolished Capital Punishment in the 50's for those deemed unfit to be part of society- so we took a stance and said we have compassion for those who kill and rape and do wrong. But then how can we allow the termination of innocent lives without so much as a bat of an eyelash?

I think i aim this particular entry at people who are flippant in their choices. The paradox i feel with this situation is that more often than not life and the choice to preserve it is overlooked by ones life and the choice to preserve the way they lead it. So effectively it becomes life vs. lifestyle...

I personally don’t view having a "child" (not carrying just a "fertilised egg") as giving up my rights; i view fertility as a privilege and an honour. That's where the buck stops.

Wow! I couldn't have said it better myself :thumb:

Edited by Faith Hope Charity

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Bismillah:

Killing the innocent baby to save the innocent mother = All life is equal! We should never try to obtain good by committing evil. The end doesn't justify the means.

Isn’t the whole idea of Salvation in Christendom based on killing innocent person?

By saving the mother you are giving her chance to take care of her other children, or maybe her old mother or father, or maybe her paralyzed husband etc etc... but to save the child means to add more calamities to the situation.

Salam

Wael.

Edited by wel_mel_2

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In the name of God - Father Son Holy Spirit

Isn’t the whole idea of Salvation in Christendom based on killing innocent person?

Yes... with the innocent person's consent!

By saving the mother you are giving her chance to take care of her other children, or maybe her old mother or father, or maybe her paralyzed husband etc etc... but to save the child means to add more calamities to the situation.

If you save the mother, on her way home from the hospital she might die in a tragic car accident & then what? I guess her other children, her old parents & her paralysed husband will have to fend for themselves. Alternatively, they can place their trust in God & His Divine Providence!

May the peace of Christ be in your heart always.

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Bismillah:

Yes... with the innocent person's consent!

And that's why he was crying loud to HIS GOD to save him? And that's why he was disappointed of God’s decision? I know that you may come up with different interpretation but as I told you earlier, we can interpret the Bible in many different ways because most of its verses are not clear, ambiguous, and the worst thing is that the Christians interpretations of the BIBLES are more confusing.

If you save the mother, on her way home from the hospital she might die in a tragic car accident & then what? I guess her other children, her old parents & her paralysed husband will have to fend for themselves. Alternatively, they can place their trust in God & His Divine Providence!

This is called destiny!! In such case there is no doubt that God Almighty is going to take care of the situation. But when it is a matter of choice between the life of the mother and the life of the fetus (who does not come yet to this world i.e UNBORN) then we have to go for the lesser damage rather than the greater one.

Salam

Wael.

Edited by wel_mel_2

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Bismillah:

I found this article to be very interesting... by the way it is written by Non Muslims (i guess they are Chrsitians)

This book by an eminent Christian philosopher, Francis Beckwith, supports the traditional Christian pro-life position based on those two main premises: that human life begins at conception (fertilization) and that it is wrong to take this life except where the mother’s actual life is in danger

full article here:

Answering Genesis.

Also you may check this out... VERY INFORMATIVE:

First of all, we would like to state that abortion is forbidden in Islam whether it be in the early or late stages of pregnancy. The degree of sin incurred varies according to the stage of pregnancy, so that less sin is incurred if the abortion takes place during the early stages, while it becomes increasingly haram (prohibited by Allah) as the pregnancy advances. When the pregnancy reaches the 120th day, abortion is totally forbidden and is considered a form of murder that requires compensation to be paid. The only condition under which abortion is allowed is when there is an actual threat to the life of the mother that is confirmed by a medical examination that reveals that if the pregnancy advances any further, the mother may die.

Full article and other related links here:

ISLAMONLINE.net

Salam

Wael.

Edited by wel_mel_2

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In the name of God - Father Son Holy Spirit.

And that's why he was crying loud to HIS GOD to save him? And that's why he was disappointed of God’s decision?

Wael, we've already been through this. Psalm 22 tells the story of a just man who is persecuted but will win in the end & the name of the Lord will be praised. It also describes the harsh treatment, insults, & mockery that the Man endured. If you read the next few verses of St Mark's Gospel, he recalls 2 events as evidence of the success of Christ's mission - the tearing of the temple veil & a Gentile's act of faith in Jesus' divinity.

we can interpret the Bible in many different ways because most of its verses are not clear, ambiguous, and the worst thing is that the Christians interpretations of the BIBLES are more confusing.

Let our Pope do his job!

This is called destiny!! In such case there is no doubt that God Almighty is going to take care of the situation. But when it is a matter of choice between the life of the mother and the life of the fetus (who does not come yet to this world i.e UNBORN) then we have to go for the lesser damage rather than the greater one.

You obviously didn't watch my video on YouTube :( Unborn doesn't mean non-existent.

I read a few articles on Islamonline. Thanks for the link :)

Do all Muslims feel the same? What would happen if a pregnant Muslim in a critical condition refuses to have an abortion & risks her life as a result? Is that considered a sin?

supports the traditional Christian pro-life position ... that it is wrong to take this life except where the mother’s actual life is in danger

This is not, nor has it ever been, nor will it ever be Catholic tradition. Thanks be to God! If it ever came down to it, personally, I'd sacrifice my life for the sake of my child's (cf. St John 16:13).

Peace Wael!

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Bismillah:

Wael, we've already been through this. Psalm 22 tells the story of a just man who is persecuted but will win in the end & the name of the Lord will be praised. It also describes the harsh treatment, insults, & mockery that the Man endured. If you read the next few verses of St Mark's Gospel, he recalls 2 events as evidence of the success of Christ's mission - the tearing of the temple veil & a Gentile's act of faith in Jesus' divinity.

Oh com on!! Jesus was begging "his God" to let the cup pass away from him, Jesus did not have the power to will it for himself and make the cup pass away from Jesus. it does not sound to me like somebody willingly going to die for your sins.

Let our Pope do his job!

The Pope is only a human being, he is not better than any other human being.

You obviously didn't watch my video on YouTube :( Unborn doesn't mean non-existent.

Yes, I am not saying that the unborn does not exist; I am saying that in Islam if the mother is going to die by delivering her baby, then abortion is allowed. Now you disagree on this, we totally respect your view.

What would happen if a pregnant Muslim in a critical condition refuses to have an abortion & risks her life as a result? Is that considered a sin?

I dont know.. maybe someone else can answer this question. I am not in a position of giving Fatwa :)

personally, I'd sacrifice my life for the sake of my child's

As a personal opinion I will totally respect, but that doesn’t mean that you are right.

Salam

Wael.

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May the love of God the Father, the grace of His only Son, & the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you!

Oh com on!! Jesus was begging "his God" to let the cup pass away from him, Jesus did not have the power to will it for himself and make the cup pass away from Jesus. it does not sound to me like somebody willingly going to die for your sins.

You always manage to choose my favourite passages... & you never fail to take them out of context ;) Whoever taught you Scripture should be sued - hehe! If you read the next few verses, it'll all make sense. If afterwards you need more clarification, I'm only an entry away :)

Guess what? I met a beautiful Persian girl today (a true Christmas blessing) who recently converted from Islam to Catholicism. She told me that it took her 2 long years to understand the doctrines of the Blessed Trinity & the Incarnation. Now she doesn't know how she ever lived without them!

My point is... I can't explain these mysteries to you in such a short period of time but I will interpret biblical texts for you & InshaAllah down the track you'll be able to piece the puzzle together :)

The Pope is only a human being, he is not better than any other human being.

I never said he was :conf06:

Yes, I am not saying that the unborn does not exist; I am saying that in Islam if the mother is going to die by delivering her baby, then abortion is allowed. Now you disagree on this, we totally respect your view.

Can we please drop the subject? I'm getting too emotional :(

As a personal opinion I will totally respect, but that doesn’t mean that you are right.

You're absolutely spot-on!

You know what? I used to be open to the idea of marrying a Muslim but now I'm having second thoughts :blink: I'm scared he'll divorce me or request that I abort our baby :o Allah forbid!

Peace my friend :peace:

Edited by Faith Hope Charity

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Bismillah:

You always manage to choose my favourite passages... & you never fail to take them out of context ;)

Are you kidding? It’s not my intention to play games with you; this is how I understand the passages, maybe because “I was not blessed with the gift” so am not going ever to understand. :blink:

Guess what? I met a beautiful Persian girl today (a true Christmas blessing) who recently converted from Islam to Catholicism. She told me that it took her 2 long years to understand the doctrines of the Blessed Trinity & the Incarnation. Now she doesn't know how she ever lived without them!

Was this supposed to be a surprise? I’ve been meeting hundreds of Catholics who, by Allah’s guidance were all reverted to Islam, amongst them are priests and nuns , sister Sally is one of the nuns who reverted to Islam and she even posted her story on this board sometimes ago. All of these people who lived as Catholics for many years (not only 2 years) suffered to understand the concept of Trinity and the incarnation of God, and Alhamduelah they finally found their answers in the house of Islam.

Can we please drop the subject? I'm getting too emotional

Ok.

You know what? I used to be open to the idea of marrying a Muslim but now I'm having second thoughts I'm scared he'll divorce me or request that I abort our baby Allah forbid!

You know what? all this time I thought you were a man hehehe… :D

My wife was a devoted catholic and yet she lived with me for more than 2 years as Catholic and there was no problem between us at all, we respected each other faiths, but Islam does make sense to her at the end. Alhamdulelah.

you may read her story here if you wish: Impressed by Islamic Prayer; A Filipina Finds Her Way Home

Salam

Wael.

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Salam Wael!

My wife was a devoted catholic and ... Islam does make sense to her at the end. Alhamdulelah.

My kindest regards to your wife :)

Wael, I don't have a problem with Catholics converting to Islam if it brings them closer to God, but it does bug me that most of them leave the Church due to false perceptions (about the faith).

she gave away all her images of Jesus, Mary, and the cross and decided not to worship them anymore.

As I've stated previously, worshiping anything or anyone besides God is a violation of the 1st Commandment & a grave sin.

opened my mind and made me aware God is really One and Unique in His attributes

Islam affirms Catholic dogma in this respect.

I was born into a very traditional Catholic family that observes and practices all kinds of innovations that are not even related to the real teachings of the Bible

Innovations??? The correct term is "piety". Nothing Catholics practice is contrary to the Bible. Everything the Church encourages (Rosary, Novenas, Scapula, Feast Days, e.t.c.) are devotions inspired by Scripture & lead us to God. They are optional & in no way obligatory.

this "One God" is sometimes called Jesus, and at other times, the Father. This was a bit confusing for me

This is confusing for a lot of people. Don't walk away from it just because you don't completely understand it.

in Islam, everyone will be accountable and responsible for their own sins; whereas in Christianity, Jesus has already paid for everyone's sins

Both statements are true & go hand in hand. Jesus died for our sins & gave us the means to overcome evil but that doesn't mean that we have a free ticket to Heaven. We sow what we reap.

I told myself that this was the right way to pray — kneeling and bowing down before God. God was worthy of being praised like this

You'd be surprised at how much Islam & Catholicism have in common!

Perhaps we can start a new thread down the track to discuss these matters further.

God bless you & your family.

Edited by Faith Hope Charity

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Bismillah:

I think better my wife come over here and respond to your post. but unfortunately she's not around these days.

I guess we are going to have very interesting discussion soon. Insh a Allah.

Salam

Wael.

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Bismillah

FHC

Although on another thread you clearly stated being here to ask questions and learn about Islam, yet, I thought the following link would help u see how othr Christians explain Jesus, I m not going to continue the discussion here, since the thread as I said was already hijacked, so if u want to comment, just feel free to pls start a new thread:

http://islamww.com/bb/index.php?showtopic=2034&st=20

Read from post #35 onward.

FHC, just a quick note, not a single Muslim man would come and ask his wife to abort THEIR own child, a child is very dear to a Muslim family, so dear that they will be asked before Allah how did they raise him/her, including food, knowledge, clothing, education, health...etc.

A child in Islam is the neuclus of the Muslim Ummah, we dont sacrifice it that easily as u may have gotten the impression.

As for divorce, O if u know the steps that must be taken before a couple comes to this conlcusion. There is every possible encouragement to maintain the knot, so dont worry, if there is someone out there waiting for you to say yes. Just say yes. :) (girl's talk) :).

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