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Whisper

The Qur'an On Trial

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Two Questions, One is to the moderator and one is to Purgetory, although I want all Muslims to answer, the answer should be the same for you all.

Will you allow this to be no holds barred?

Do you all believe all the Qur'ans in the world are identical, and that it is perfectly preserved and free from any variation?

Before we begin the slaughter, the Qur'an is if I am not mistaken is a perfect book, unchanged, with no variation.

That claim is of the highest.

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i'm definitely not a Muslim, but i'm just curious. are you refering to the English translations or the Arabic ones?(if there are more than one)

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Arabic, however if permission is given, I will post the Arabic language variations and a close to perfect English translation.

Arabic is where I intend to hit many a nail on the head because it is their comfort zone.

The bottom line is that I will prove to them that the Qur'an isn't perfect.

That's all I have to do, it's very easy to do when you know you can back it up with hard evidence, that being from the different Qur'ans.

So, for all intensive purposes, it is really a custom made win.

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Here's a fact,

it shouldn't offend you, the truth should never hurt you in the long run.

Muslims believe that the Quran was written directly by Allah, given to the angel Gabriel, and handed down to Muhammad. Thus, it is perfect in its original language, and in fact, cannot even be translated properly by any human - but must be read in Arabic (Suras 12:2; 13:37; 41:41,44).

Unfortunately, this makes the Quran unreadable by approximately 800 million Muslims.

WOW, What a stroke of genius!

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Here's a few soft ones,

It is claimed that there are no variant readings or versions of the Quran.

And, according to Sura 10:37-38, no one could write anything like the Quran.

These are rather bold claims...especially to one who has seen the evidence for the Bible's trustworthiness and claim to truth. But these claims are easily inspected. We have the scholarship available to us today to see if these things are so. The following is a list of FACTS concerning the Muslim claim of inspiration for the Quran.

The Quran contains grammatical errors (Suras 2:177,192; 3:59; 4:162; 5:69; 7:160; 13:28; 20:66; 63:10...) In fact, more than 100 aberrations from the Arabic language have been noted by Arabic scholars.

The Quran uses words foreign to the Arabic language. These include Egyptian, Hebrew, Greek, Ethiopian, Persian...over 100 in all. This also shows the manner in which Muhammad borrowed stories from merchants as they passed through Mecca.

There is absolutely no doubt among western and Arabic scholars that many variant readings exist for the Quran (over 140 for just one sura!). Now, that in itself should not be important, except we must remember that Muslim doctrine states that the Quran is perfect and that it exists in only one form - that which was handed down to Muhammad by the angel Gabriel.

Uthman's standardized version of the Quran (the one currently accepted by Islam) has verses missing (over 120 verses from just one sura!). This fact is universally recognized. The Quran has gone through an "editing" process since the time of the original collection of documents.

Uthman's standard version is in itself proof of the malleability of the Quran...what need is there for a standardized text if no variations exist? Verses have been removed, added, changed...interestingly the Muslim excuse is that Allah may "change his mind" on certain teachings. Is this not the way of all false religions?

There is no such thing as an "original" Quran. The fact is that Muhammad spoke the contents of the Quran during his fits or when something needed to be done. Sometimes those words would be recorded, sometimes not. Often they were written on leaves or sticks. None of these original writings exist today. Period.

The "heavenly language" of the Quran is, conveniently, not only in Muhammad's own tongue, but in the dialect of his own tribe! What are the odds?

The eloquence of the Quran is merely a matter of opinion. It is a confused collection of jumbled suras, often wordy and in no particular order. It has been called "humiliating to the human intellect"..."mediocre literature"..."exceedingly incoherent"..."badly edited"... "obtusely arranged" (and these last two from a Muslim scholar!).

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laugh.gif

I just wonder what do I have to to say to make you stop making a fool out of yourselves????[/color:ecb162e627]

The thing is that you know how well I will prove you wrong and make you put your foot in your mouths yet you keep doing it to yourselves, hmmmmmm, what description would possibly fit you????

Could some one suggest a description for these 2, please, please, please, help me out here, I am ROFLOL.[/color:ecb162e627] laugh.gif

The other thing is, I hate to waste my time with people below average intellignce like that, but since you wanna come here and challange me, then you are on.

Any intelligent person would have thought twice before posting something like this.

Wait for my reply to this ridiculous post as the rest of your posts are, I now realize that's the only thing you are good at! laugh.gif

P.S. You can keep trying to twist words around as much as you want, [u:ecb162e627]my job will be[/u:ecb162e627]: [b:ecb162e627]make you put your foot in your mouth.[/b:ecb162e627]

[u:ecb162e627][b:ecb162e627]To my brothers and sisters:[/size:ecb162e627][/color:ecb162e627][/b:ecb162e627][/u:ecb162e627]

[b:ecb162e627]PLEASE do NOT reply before I do (except for suggesting the descriptions laugh.gif), Jazakum ALLAH khiran, I will reply after a couple of hours of sleep.[/color:ecb162e627][/size:ecb162e627][/b:ecb162e627]

As a matter of fact, here's a little quiz for my brothers and sisters:

Who can tell how ALLAH (SWT) described these types of people in the Quran? And what is/are the verse(s)?

Work on that until I post my reply, jazakum ALLAH khiran.[/color:ecb162e627]

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Get real my man, if you were serious about taking up the challange, you'd explain and counter my posts instead of ducking and diving.

I can post a smiley face also, look biggrin.gifbiggrin.gifbiggrin.gifbiggrin.gifbiggrin.gif

Unfortunately, posting smiley faces won't win you or I an arguement based on fact.

Why don't you make an effort?, that post above offered an opinion, not fact, if you refuse to play by the rules,

Well,

Next........................

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Again .....................

Here's a few soft ones,

It is claimed that there are no variant readings or versions of the Quran.

And, according to Sura 10:37-38, no one could write anything like the Quran.

These are rather bold claims...especially to one who has seen the evidence for the Bible's trustworthiness and claim to truth. But these claims are easily inspected. We have the scholarship available to us today to see if these things are so. The following is a list of FACTS concerning the Muslim claim of inspiration for the Quran.

The Quran contains grammatical errors (Suras 2:177,192; 3:59; 4:162; 5:69; 7:160; 13:28; 20:66; 63:10...) In fact, more than 100 aberrations from the Arabic language have been noted by Arabic scholars.

The Quran uses words foreign to the Arabic language. These include Egyptian, Hebrew, Greek, Ethiopian, Persian...over 100 in all. This also shows the manner in which Muhammad borrowed stories from merchants as they passed through Mecca.

There is absolutely no doubt among western and Arabic scholars that many variant readings exist for the Quran (over 140 for just one sura!). Now, that in itself should not be important, except we must remember that Muslim doctrine states that the Quran is perfect and that it exists in only one form - that which was handed down to Muhammad by the angel Gabriel.

Uthman's standardized version of the Quran (the one currently accepted by Islam) has verses missing (over 120 verses from just one sura!). This fact is universally recognized. The Quran has gone through an "editing" process since the time of the original collection of documents.

Uthman's standard version is in itself proof of the malleability of the Quran...what need is there for a standardized text if no variations exist? Verses have been removed, added, changed...interestingly the Muslim excuse is that Allah may "change his mind" on certain teachings. Is this not the way of all false religions?

There is no such thing as an "original" Quran. The fact is that Muhammad spoke the contents of the Quran during his fits or when something needed to be done. Sometimes those words would be recorded, sometimes not. Often they were written on leaves or sticks. None of these original writings exist today. Period.

The "heavenly language" of the Quran is, conveniently, not only in Muhammad's own tongue, but in the dialect of his own tribe! What are the odds?

The eloquence of the Quran is merely a matter of opinion. It is a confused collection of jumbled suras, often wordy and in no particular order. It has been called "humiliating to the human intellect"..."mediocre literature"..."exceedingly incoherent"..."badly edited"... "obtusely arranged" (and these last two from a Muslim scholar!).

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Yeah I am still up, but my sleep comes before replying to such ridiculous posts laugh.gif and don't worry, I won't dream about my reply as you might think laugh.gif

Any average Muslim (as u described them in another post) can reply to you, but I wanna do it to make you put your foot in your mouth once and for all and in public, hehehehe. laugh.gif

later.

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WOW - Talk is cheap, unless, you are going to present evidence that hasn't ever been seen by the major scholars of this world and that is Godly, you like others I have dealt with will, simply be drowned out by facts.

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Sobhan Allah

Ok AbuNOran you have fun and reply to Whisper, we will not respond before you. BUT PLS SLEEP FIRST smile.gifsmile.gifsmile.gif Matter of fact Whisper misunderstands our not responding sometimes. It is just not even worth reading, so how about responding. Simply whisper fails to make a properly articulated post.

But you also asked us to think of a description. Jazakum Allah khairan for the idea. I can actually think of many, take those:

“A party of the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians) wish to lead you astray. But they shall not lead astray anyone except themselves, and they perceive not.” (Quran 3: 69)

“And if they see the way of righteousness (monotheism, piety, and good deeds), they will not adopt it as the Way, but if they see the way of error (polytheism, crimes and evil deeds), they will adopt that way, that is because they have rejected Our Ayât (proofs, evidence, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.) and were heedless (to learn a lesson) from them.” (Quran 7: 146)

“So, because of their breach of their covenant, We cursed them and made their hearts grow hard. They change the words from their (right) places and have abandoned a good part of the Message that was sent to them.[1] And you will not cease to discover deceit in them, except a few of them. But forgive them and overlook (their misdeeds). Verily, Allâh loves Al-Muhsinûn (good-doers - See V.2:112).” (Quran5:13)

“Say (O Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم) "O people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians)! You have nothing (as regards guidance) till you act according to the Taurât (Torah), the Injeel (Gospel), and what has (now) been sent down to you from your Lord (the Qur’ân)." Verily, that which has been sent down to you (Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم) from your Lord increases in most of them (their) obstinate rebellion and disbelief. So be not sorrowful over the people who disbelieve.” (Quran 5:68)

Unless you have somethin else in mind. And you know what brother, I think you feel the same way we all do, is that we are grateful to Allah for being able to see the truth. May Allah never makes us among:

"Your Ilâh[2] (God) is One Ilâh (God - Allâh, none has the right to be worshipped but He). [b:9dce81c609]But for those who believe not in the Hereafter, their hearts deny (the faith in the Oneness of Allâh), and they are proud.[[/b:9dce81c609][/color:9dce81c609]3]" (16:22)

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salamo alikom Abu noran.

dont you agree with me abu noran that they really know where is the Truth but they Won't accept it? dont know why?

however, here are some Verses regarding the Examples of Amai and Whisper. pls correct if there is any mistake. Gazak allahu khiran.

2-109 -Quite a number of the people of the book wish they could turn you (people) back to infidelity after ye have believed, from selfish envy, after the truth hath become manifest unto them: but forgive and overlook, till God accomplish his purpose; for God hath power over all things.

2-146 -The people of the book know this as they know their own sons, but some of them conceal the truth which they themselves know.

3-71 -Ye people of the book why do ye clothe truth with falsehood, and conceal the truth, while ye have knowledge?

6-93 -Who can be more wicked than one who inventeth a lie against God, or saith, I have received inspiration, when he hath received none, or (again) who saith, I can reveal the like of what God hath revealed? if thou couldst but see how the wicked (do fare) in the flood of confusion at death the angels stretch forth their hands, (saying), yield up your souls: this day shall ye receive your reward, a penalty of shame, for that ye used to tell lies against God, and scornfully to reject of his signs

7-146 -Those who behave arrogantly on the earth in defiance of right them will I turn away from my signs: even if they see all the signs, they will not believe in them; and if they see the way of right conduct, they will not adopt it as the way; but if they see the way of error, that is the way they will adopt. for they have rejected our signs, and failed to take warning from them.

8-6 -Disputing with thee concerning the truth after it was made manifest, as if they were being driven to death and they (actually) saw it.

18-56 -We only send the apostles to give glad tidings and to give warnings: but the unbelievers dispute with vain argument, in order therewith to weaken the truth, and they treat my signs as a jest, as also the fact that they are warned

23:68, 69, 70, 71, 72 .....................................

wel_mel

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*covers very wide grin*

Whisper dude, where did you get this stuff? :wink:

and hey, why don't you post something like that regarding the Bible?

anyhoo, i'll be waiting for AbuNoran's post. must have good stuff in it. biggrin.gif

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Two Questions, One is to the moderator and one is to Purgetory, although I want all Muslims to answer, the answer should be the same for you all.

Will you allow this to be no holds barred?

Do you all believe all the Qur'ans in the world are identical, and that it is perfectly preserved and free from any variation?[/quote:2688b46e12]

To the first question, its realy simple, how ever different we could be, when discussing our differences, its realy not hard to keep the respect. Amai has done well so far.

If you stick to that, I dont think you will face any trouble. If your post was deleted even though you did stick to that rule, then my friend, I will leave the forum with you. For there is no point in a religion forum where the other side is not allowed to get his questions and comments answered.

Concerning the second question, yes, the one that are printed by muslims. France tryed to make a copy that holds errors and different teachings, didnt go far. Israel is doing that now.

These books I dont consider as Qoran. The one and only Qoran is the one printed by muslims, there is an online copy in english as well as arabic. The topic is in the new muslims forum I believe.

Concerning the rest, I will reply after Abu Noran as he has asked, I'm keeping it in a word document for now.

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Puregtroy you are absolutely correct it is only if Whisper can understand

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As-salaam alla maan etba Al-hoda,

Jazakum ALLAH khiran brothers and sisters for posting these good descriptions as they are all valid and fit them well and there are even more in the Quran. I will post the ones that came to my mind yesterday at the end of this post.

Sobhan Allah

Ok AbuNOran you have fun and reply to Whisper, we will not respond before you. BUT PLS SLEEP FIRST Matter of fact Whisper misunderstands our not responding sometimes. It is just not even worth reading, so how about responding. Simply whisper fails to make a properly articulated post.[/quote:837a770b71]

Jazaky ALLAH khiran my dear sister, you are absolutely right, that's why I have put both on ignore, they are even wasting their time typing those posts. NO intelligence in their thinking what so ever.

salamo alikom Abu noran.

dont you agree with me abu noran that they really know where is the Truth but they Won't accept it? dont know why?[/quote:837a770b71]

Wa-Alikum As-salaam my good brother, I completly agree with you, the Ayat that you posted and I will post next can tell you why they reject the truth as ALLAH (SWT) told us so 1425 Hijri years ago.

Here are the Ayat that poped to my head yesterday when I read this and the other posts:

Al-A'raf (Surah #7)

[179] [i:837a770b71]Many are the Jinns and men We have made for Hell: they have hearts wherewith they understand not, eyes wherewith they see not, and ears wherewith they hear not[/i:837a770b71]. [b:837a770b71][u:837a770b71]They are like cattle, nay more misguided: for they are heedless (of warning)[/u:837a770b71].[/b:837a770b71]

[180] The most beautiful names belong to Allah: so call on Him by them; but shun such men as use profanity in His names: for what they do, they will soon be requited.

[181] Of those We have created are people who direct (others) with truth, and dispense justice therewith.

[182] Those who reject Our Signs, We shall gradually visit with punishment, in ways they perceive not;

[183] Respite will I grant unto them: for My scheme is strong (and unfailing).

[184] Do they not reflect? Their Companion is not seized with madness: he is but a perspicuous warner.

[185] [b:837a770b71]Do[/b:837a770b71] they see nothing in the government of the heavens and the earth and all that Allah hath created? (Do they not see) that it may well be that their term is nigh drawing to an end? In what Message after this will they then believe?

[186] [u:837a770b71]To such as Allah rejects from His guidance, [b:837a770b71]there can be no guide:[/b:837a770b71] He will leave them in their trespasses, wandering in distraction[/u:837a770b71].[/color:837a770b71]

Al-Furqan (Surah #25)

[44] [u:837a770b71]Or thinkest thou that most of them listen or understand? They are only like cattle; [b:837a770b71]nay[/b:837a770b71], they are worse astray in Path[/u:837a770b71].[/color:837a770b71]

And you wonder why I don't respond to you any more.

My reply to the ridiculous post in details is coming next, but think about this and you might understand why I said any intelligent person would have thought twice before posting something like this.

If you go to [u:837a770b71][b:837a770b71]any[/b:837a770b71][/u:837a770b71] country in the whole world from north to south, east to west and buy the Quran from each of these countries, you will [u:837a770b71]NOT[/u:837a770b71] find any difference in each and every one of the Quran you bought, that's my challenge to you right now.[/color:837a770b71]

Concerning the rest, I will reply after Abu Noran as he has asked, I'm keeping it in a word document for now.[/quote:837a770b71]

Brother Purgetory (and all the other brothers and sisters), it's ok, you can go ahead and reply to him :wink: , I know you can't wait, after all the thread is not going anywhere and its time to turn the table around, enough is enough. My advice to you all and myself is to choose our words wisely cause they either count towards or against us and we will be asked about them.[/color:837a770b71]

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Your claim is that the Qur'an is perfect, guarded by Allah, I can prove, and have started the process, that the Qur'an has been edited, that there are loads of varitions and a great number of mistakes.

Realistically, I only have to prove that there is ONE mistake.

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Stop wasting time and get on with it but I like the below

"If you go to any country in the whole world from north to south, east to west and buy the Quran from each of these countries, you will NOT find any difference in each and every one of the Quran you bought, that's my challenge to you right now."

This is easy, ONE mistake,

However, since you still dancing around me,

Here's the same soft one again

It is claimed that there are no variant readings or versions of the Quran.

And, according to Sura 10:37-38, no one could write anything like the Quran.

These are rather bold claims...especially to one who has seen the evidence for the Bible's trustworthiness and claim to truth. But these claims are easily inspected. We have the scholarship available to us today to see if these things are so. The following is a list of FACTS concerning the Muslim claim of inspiration for the Quran.

The Quran contains grammatical errors (Suras 2:177,192; 3:59; 4:162; 5:69; 7:160; 13:28; 20:66; 63:10...) In fact, more than 100 aberrations from the Arabic language have been noted by Arabic scholars.

The Quran uses words foreign to the Arabic language. These include Egyptian, Hebrew, Greek, Ethiopian, Persian...over 100 in all. This also shows the manner in which Muhammad borrowed stories from merchants as they passed through Mecca.

There is absolutely no doubt among western and Arabic scholars that many variant readings exist for the Quran (over 140 for just one sura!). Now, that in itself should not be important, except we must remember that Muslim doctrine states that the Quran is perfect and that it exists in only one form - that which was handed down to Muhammad by the angel Gabriel.

Uthman's standardized version of the Quran (the one currently accepted by Islam) has verses missing (over 120 verses from just one sura!). This fact is universally recognized. The Quran has gone through an "editing" process since the time of the original collection of documents.

Uthman's standard version is in itself proof of the malleability of the Quran...what need is there for a standardized text if no variations exist? Verses have been removed, added, changed...interestingly the Muslim excuse is that Allah may "change his mind" on certain teachings. Is this not the way of all false religions?

There is no such thing as an "original" Quran. The fact is that Muhammad spoke the contents of the Quran during his fits or when something needed to be done. Sometimes those words would be recorded, sometimes not. Often they were written on leaves or sticks. None of these original writings exist today. Period.

The "heavenly language" of the Quran is, conveniently, not only in Muhammad's own tongue, but in the dialect of his own tribe! What are the odds?

The eloquence of the Quran is merely a matter of opinion. It is a confused collection of jumbled suras, often wordy and in no particular order. It has been called "humiliating to the human intellect"..."mediocre literature"..."exceedingly incoherent"..."badly edited"... "obtusely arranged" (and these last two from a Muslim scholar!).

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WOW - Talk is cheap, unless,......[/quote:9c545edbe0]

Talk is NOT cheap, its free. And u r the perfect example for that.

Man you can't even get this one right.

Why do keep posting the same thing over and over???

Are you brain dead or something???

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.

My advice to you all and myself is to choose our words wisely cause they either count towards or against us and we will be asked about them.[/color:ac184f0be0][/quote:ac184f0be0]

Jazakum Allah kharian katheeran AbuNOran for a precise and concise reply. However, I doubt if Whisper shall understand. Any way at least Alhamdulelah we freed our status before Allah. And I hope Whisper realizes why we sometimes don't respond. We only fear Allah not any creation. And you know what Whisper, Purgetroy was correct about us Alhamdulelah observing manners. You are complaining about us mods. I have been blamed so many times for being soft and having patience. In this we all serve Allah.

You know what I will not even bother. Just take the time and effort. Go around the world, spend money and buy Quran if they sell you.

Allah protected and shall protect His book to the Hereafter.

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Why don't you get on with it?

You said "my job will be: make you put your foot in your mouth."

Come On, you took me up on my offer and now you're ducking and diving and still have yet to answer the above and "my job will be: make you put your foot in your mouth.",

I will continue,

"No other book in the world can match the Qur'an ... The astonishing fact about this book of ALLAH is that it has remained unchanged, even to a dot, over the last fourteen hundred years. ... No variation of text can be found in it. You can check this for yourself by listening to the recitation of Muslims from different parts of the world. (Basic Principles of Islam, Abu Dhabi, UAE: The Zayed Bin Sultan Al Nahayan Charitable & Humanitarian Foundation, 1996, p. 4, bold added)"

The fact is that the Qur'an is thought to be perfect by Muslims.

The above claim is that all Qur'ans around the world are identical and that "no variation of text can be found". In fact the author issues a challenge saying, "You can check this for yourself by listening to the recitation of Muslims from different parts of the world". I take up this challenge to see if all Qur'ans are in fact identical.

I am going to start by comparing two Qur'ans first and then the rest.

The first Qur'an is the most commonly used Qur'an and is according to the Hafs' transmission. The second Qur'an is according to the Warsh' transmission and is mainly used in North Africa.

Remember, this is just the start.

When you compare these Qur'ans, it becomes obvious that they are not identical. There are three main types of differences between them.

Graphical/Basic letter differences

Diacritical differences

Vowel differences

There are differences between the basic printed letters of these two Qur'ans. It was these letters that Uthman standardized in his recension of the Qur'an.

THE QUR'AN ACCORDING TO THE TRANSMISSION OF IMAM HAFS AND SECOND, IMAM WARSH

IMAM HAFS surah 2:132 (wawassaa)

IMAM WARSH surah 2:131 (wa'awsaa)

IMAM HAFS surah 91:15 (wa laa yakhaafu)

IMAM WARSH surah 91:15 (fa laa yakhaafu)

THIS IS A STARTER, I WILL POST PICTURE LATER ON,

Unchanged - all Qurans identical?

The below pictures in reference to

IMAM HAFS surah 2:132 (wawassaa)

IMAM WARSH surah 2:131 (wa'awsaa)

[img:bb85b604f8]http://answering-islam.org/Green/seven/hafs_1.gif[/img:bb85b604f8]

[img:bb85b604f8]http://answering-islam.org/Green/seven/warsh_1.gif[/img:bb85b604f8]

The below pictures in reference to

IMAM HAFS surah 91:15 (wa laa yakhaafu)

IMAM WARSH surah 91:15 (fa laa yakhaafu)

[img:bb85b604f8]http://answering-islam.org/Green/seven/hafs_11.gif[/img:bb85b604f8]

[img:bb85b604f8]http://answering-islam.org/Green/seven/warsh_11.gif[/img:bb85b604f8]

The above examples show that there are differences between the basic letters of these two Qur'ans.

DIACRITICAL DIFFERENCES - Arabic uses dots to distinguish between certain letters that are written the same way. For instance the basic symbol represents five different letters in the Arabic language depending upon where the diacritical dots are placed. For the above example, the five letters with their diacritical dots are as follows: baa', taa', thaa', nuun, yaa'. However these dots were a later development of the Arabic script and were not in use when Uthman standardized the text of the Qur'an. Thus the Uthman' Qur'an did not have any dots to record the exact letter and pronunciation. The text could be read in several ways and was in this way ambiguous in places. It served as a guide for the different Readers of the Qur'an, but not as a complete guide because the diacritical dots were not yet in use. The two Qur'ans that we are examining come from two different Readers and so have two different oral traditions. These traditions have their own unique system of where the dots (and vowels) should go. Here we see another difference between these two Qur'ans for they do not have the dots in the same place. We see that for the same word these two Qur'ans have the dots in different positions thus making different letters. (Remember that verse/aya numbering differs between these two Qur'ans.)

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Muslims believe that the Quran was written directly by Allah, given to the angel Gabriel, and handed down to Muhammad. Thus, it is perfect in its original language, and in fact, cannot even be translated properly by any human - but must be read in Arabic (Suras 12:2; 13:37; 41:41,44).

Unfortunately, this makes the Quran unreadable by approximately 800 million Muslims.[/quote:d3dc8f17fa]

There are several good translations in any language, yet non the less, its common sense that a translation cannot be exactly the same as the original language in which any book has been written. Considering it a book of God, every specific word has been chosen for a reason. You see my friend, in Arabic, there are several words that have the same meaning, yet still each one gives a different feeling, a different…pulse….pressure, if I may say, its hard to explain realy…its like describing the color blue to a blind man.

Yet that doesn’t mean the English translation is a complete non-sense compared to the Arabic original, its just not the same. Non the less, its not THAT bad, not realy a subject to be very concerned with.

The Quran contains grammatical errors (Suras 2:177,192; 3:59; 4:162; 5:69; 7:160; 13:28; 20:66; 63:10...) In fact, more than 100 aberrations from the Arabic language have been noted by Arabic scholars.[/quote:d3dc8f17fa]

Now why don’t you tell me how I can reply to that to a man that doesn’t know Arabic. I can post the verses in Arabic for you, yet could you read them? This point is useless, it doesn’t mark anything on your side because you don’t know that this is true for sure. Did you see thoughs errors yourself? Can you name the scholars and show us where on the web did they say that?

The Quran uses words foreign to the Arabic language. These include Egyptian, Hebrew, Greek, Ethiopian, Persian...over 100 in all. This also shows the manner in which Muhammad borrowed stories from merchants as they passed through Mecca.[/quote:d3dc8f17fa]

You have given us verses of other points, yet of all of them, this is the one which can be truly seen if true or not by quoteing from the Qoran…and I see no quote. Doesn’t this tell you something?

There is absolutely no doubt among western and Arabic scholars that many variant readings exist for the Quran (over 140 for just one sura!). Now, that in itself should not be important, except we must remember that Muslim doctrine states that the Quran is perfect and that it exists in only one form - that which was handed down to Muhammad by the angel Gabriel.[/quote:d3dc8f17fa]

I don’t know what exactly your talking about, yet I know for sure, in reading the Qoran, I have heard different tones given. If you ever hear the Qoran being read, you will notice some kind of music which the reciter does of his own. Nothing vitial for reading, only desirable for some people. These tones could defer, and could not exist sometimes, depends on the guy reciting.

Do you think this is realy that important? The Book still holds its words.

Uthman's standardized version of the Quran (the one currently accepted by Islam) has verses missing (over 120 verses from just one sura!). This fact is universally recognized. The Quran has gone through an "editing" process since the time of the original collection of documents.

Uthman's standard version is in itself proof of the malleability of the Quran...what need is there for a standardized text if no variations exist? Verses have been removed, added, changed...interestingly the Muslim excuse is that Allah may "change his mind" on certain teachings. Is this not the way of all false religions?[/quote:d3dc8f17fa]

Excuse? Excuse for what? This is the first time I ever heard of such a thing! Realy strange what you guys could come up with.

I have said this before. How can you edit a book that have been memorized in our minds for centuries. How can you change a book engraved in the mental world? You cant even remove a letter, not to mention verses! In life, there are three generations. The granddad, father, and son. If the son is memoriseing edited Qoran, believe it or not, his father or grandfather will notice and right the wrong.

There is no such thing as an "original" Quran. The fact is that Muhammad spoke the contents of the Quran during his fits or when something needed to be done. Sometimes those words would be recorded, sometimes not. Often they were written on leaves or sticks. None of these original writings exist today. Period.

The "heavenly language" of the Quran is, conveniently, not only in Muhammad's own tongue, but in the dialect of his own tribe! What are the odds?[/quote:d3dc8f17fa]

Yes, the Qoran was written back then on leaves, stick and bones and also memorized by heart. Until later it was compiled into a book. The Qoran is there now, the only thing I can answer you with is go read it and find out for yourself. How am I to prove to you that the Qoran is written in a type of Arabic never been used before. It is in a level of its own. Yet you wont believe me nor any one who tells you this. So realy, those comments your making simply don’t have any answer for you. Unless you trust us, the only answer you could find is by studying Arabic and checking for yourself. As for my part, I am telling you, the Qoran is in a level of its own when it comes to the style of Arabic it is written in. Cant say more can I?

The eloquence of the Quran is merely a matter of opinion. It is a confused collection of jumbled suras, often wordy and in no particular order. It has been called "humiliating to the human intellect"..."mediocre literature"..."exceedingly incoherent"..."badly edited"... "obtusely arranged" (and these last two from a Muslim scholar!).[/quote:d3dc8f17fa]

This is were the language doesn’t matter. Here is a link with English and Arabic Qoran. Click on any verse and scroll up to start reading from the beginning. Then come back and speak for your self and not through the mind of others whom you have taken this article off.

http://www.unn.ac.uk/societies/islamic/qur...le/subject1.htm

You have not given any proofs again Whispers. All what you did was judge judge and judge. Any proofs from the Qoran would make your judgment more stable. You did give verses for a few things, which we cant reply to you about because they deal with the Arabic language which you are of ignorance in. non the less, you take what is said against Islam to heart without seconding it. Would you take what us arabs and muslims that read the Qoran at least once every year and memorise it to heart? We have more basis and can be trusted more than your sourse. We own copies of the Qoran and we read and memorise them. Did the author of your article do that? Who can you trust more? Yet I’m expecting from you not to trust us, which doesn’t matter realy.

The main thing is, try to prove your point after making them.

Why don’t you start with the hard ones, eh whisper? wink.gif

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Hey, stop screwing around, the fact is .i have already provided proof, I said that ONE mistake is enough to cast complete doubt on the Qur'an.

The Qur'an is supposed to be PERFECT, UNCHANGEABLE, ALL QUR'ANS IN THE WORLD (ARABIC) ARE IDENTICAL.

Now, you obviously need your eyes checked.

You, by what you have said are going against the Qur'an, Muslims accuse the Bible of being corrupt because there are different translations, however the Bible doesn't claim that God wrote the Bible,

The Qur'an does claim such and there are translations and there are differences,

The Qur'an is unique according to Muslims because it is actually from Allah and is perfect, how can this be when there are translations and differences as I have shown?

"There are several good translations in any language, yet non the less, its common sense that a translation cannot be exactly the same as the original language in which any book has been written. Considering it a book of God, every specific word has been chosen for a reason. You see my friend, in Arabic, there are several words that have the same meaning, yet still each one gives a different feeling, a different…pulse….pressure, if I may say, its hard to explain realy…its like describing the color blue to a blind man.

Yet that doesn’t mean the English translation is a complete non-sense compared to the Arabic original, its just not the same. Non the less, its not THAT bad, not realy a subject to be very concerned with."

You botched that one up!!!

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Again.........

"No other book in the world can match the Qur'an ... The astonishing fact about this book of ALLAH is that it has remained unchanged, even to a dot, over the last fourteen hundred years. ... No variation of text can be found in it. You can check this for yourself by listening to the recitation of Muslims from different parts of the world. (Basic Principles of Islam, Abu Dhabi, UAE: The Zayed Bin Sultan Al Nahayan Charitable & Humanitarian Foundation, 1996, p. 4, bold added)"

The fact is that the Qur'an is thought to be perfect by Muslims.

The above claim is that all Qur'ans around the world are identical and that "no variation of text can be found". In fact the author issues a challenge saying, "You can check this for yourself by listening to the recitation of Muslims from different parts of the world". I take up this challenge to see if all Qur'ans are in fact identical.

I am going to start by comparing two Qur'ans first and then the rest.

The first Qur'an is the most commonly used Qur'an and is according to the Hafs' transmission. The second Qur'an is according to the Warsh' transmission and is mainly used in North Africa.

Remember, this is just the start.

When you compare these Qur'ans, it becomes obvious that they are not identical. There are three main types of differences between them.

Graphical/Basic letter differences

Diacritical differences

Vowel differences

There are differences between the basic printed letters of these two Qur'ans. It was these letters that Uthman standardized in his recension of the Qur'an.

THE QUR'AN ACCORDING TO THE TRANSMISSION OF IMAM HAFS AND SECOND, IMAM WARSH

IMAM HAFS surah 2:132 (wawassaa)

IMAM WARSH surah 2:131 (wa'awsaa)

IMAM HAFS surah 91:15 (wa laa yakhaafu)

IMAM WARSH surah 91:15 (fa laa yakhaafu)

THIS IS A STARTER, I WILL POST PICTURE LATER ON,

Unchanged - all Qurans identical?

The below pictures in reference to

IMAM HAFS surah 2:132 (wawassaa)

IMAM WARSH surah 2:131 (wa'awsaa)

[img:58bdb6b608]http://answering-islam.org/Green/seven/hafs_1.gif[/img:58bdb6b608]

[img:58bdb6b608]http://answering-islam.org/Green/seven/warsh_1.gif[/img:58bdb6b608]

The below pictures in reference to

IMAM HAFS surah 91:15 (wa laa yakhaafu)

IMAM WARSH surah 91:15 (fa laa yakhaafu)

[img:58bdb6b608]http://answering-islam.org/Green/seven/hafs_11.gif[/img:58bdb6b608]

[img:58bdb6b608]http://answering-islam.org/Green/seven/warsh_11.gif[/img:58bdb6b608]

The above examples show that there are differences between the basic letters of these two Qur'ans.

DIACRITICAL DIFFERENCES - Arabic uses dots to distinguish between certain letters that are written the same way. For instance the basic symbol represents five different letters in the Arabic language depending upon where the diacritical dots are placed. For the above example, the five letters with their diacritical dots are as follows: baa', taa', thaa', nuun, yaa'. However these dots were a later development of the Arabic script and were not in use when Uthman standardized the text of the Qur'an. Thus the Uthman' Qur'an did not have any dots to record the exact letter and pronunciation. The text could be read in several ways and was in this way ambiguous in places. It served as a guide for the different Readers of the Qur'an, but not as a complete guide because the diacritical dots were not yet in use. The two Qur'ans that we are examining come from two different Readers and so have two different oral traditions. These traditions have their own unique system of where the dots (and vowels) should go. Here we see another difference between these two Qur'ans for they do not have the dots in the same place. We see that for the same word these two Qur'ans have the dots in different positions thus making different letters. (Remember that verse/aya numbering differs between these two Qur'ans.)

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Hey, stop screwing around, the fact is .i have already provided proof, I said that ONE mistake is enough to cast complete doubt on the Qur'an.[/quote:fabc428247]

Where? You only gave them where you spoke of the language used. Do you know arabic? how am I to show you that your judgment is flawed when you dont know arabic? How do you have the heart to judge about something you dont know anything off? You realy should think for your self and stop taking what others say for granted.

The Qur'an is supposed to be PERFECT, UNCHANGEABLE, ALL QUR'ANS IN THE WORLD (ARABIC) ARE IDENTICAL.

Now, you obviously need your eyes checked.[/quote:fabc428247]

Oh, so you dont want an answer to you remarks. If I tell you I read the Qoran and I dont find any errors, you tell me I need my eyes checked. What do you want me to say? You want me to lie so that I will please you? there is only one way to find out the truth, make YOUR OWN research and read the Qoran yourself to find out!

You, by what you have said are going against the Qur'an, Muslims accuse the Bible of being corrupt because there are different translations, however the Bible doesn't claim that God wrote the Bible,

The Qur'an does claim such and there are translations and there are differences.[/quote:fabc428247]

Where did I say that muslims believe that the Bible was corrupt because of the translations? What I have said in other posts was that you missinterpert alot of your Bible.

try reading this article, http://www.islamww.com/bb/viewtopic.php?t=631

The Qur'an is unique according to Muslims because it is actually from Allah and is perfect, how can this be when there are translations and differences as I have shown?[/quote:fabc428247]

This is a different story all together. you can make your own book and call it the Qoran. Blasphemy? yes. possible? also yes. we're not talking about mere translations, we're talking about making a comic, lets say. and claim its divinity.

Non the less, God still protected His book and it remains. However much you may try to make different copies, the one which is true will always remain, until the end of days. THAT is protecting the Book. It doesnt mean that no one will ever try to edit or change in it to ruin our nation, but however much you may try, God's book will remain in its glory and remain on earth as a guidance to humanity forever.

As I have said in my first post here, france and Israel have tried to make copies. I never said it was impossible, yet they never succeed in destroying us, because any change would be obvious. We memorise our book through generations, whisper, thats the greatest way to preserve a book. no one, no one, can change our book with the way we preserve it.

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